Sean Sullivan - Capturing More Than Just Music

My guest this week is 5 time Grammy award winning engineer, mixer and producer Sean Sullivan.

Sean has worked with dozens of artists, including Sturgill Simpson, Tyler Childers, The Steeldrivers, The Del McCoury Band, Michael Cleveland, Andrew Marlin, Molly Tuttle & Golden Highway and Mighty Poplar.

We chat about his route into recording and how he only came to love string band music when he started working on it. Sean also talks about what he learned in his time at The Butcher Shoppe Studio, owned by John Prine and producer David Ferguson, and his current studio, The Tractor Shed.

We also talk about what's really important in music, Sean's approach to working with artists and why, sometimes, the best sounding records just aren't the best records.

Follow Sean on Instagram or check out www.seansullivanaudio.com to keep up to date with what he's working on. You can find out more about The Tractor Shed at www.tractorshedstudio.com

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:27

We had this class uh called critical listening, which was like, you're gonna listen to this frequency and see if you can closely pick out what it is. But then some of it was like bring in a recording that you think is a good example of drums or vocal sound or whatever, and uh my professor was very into like steely band, and that was not at all my interest. I would bring in examples of things that I thought were good, and he would be like, that's like a three out of ten. That's like that's a terrible recording if the drums are blown up or whatever it is, and I'm like, well, I don't I don't know. When I put it on in the car, I turn it up and I sing along and it feels good.

Matt 1:13

Hi, this is Matt, and you listen to Bluegrass Jam Along the podcast for anyone and everyone who loves bluegrass. Hey everybody, welcome back to Bluegrass Jamal, and my guest this week is Sean Sullivan. And Sean is a five-time Grammy award-winning engineer, mixer and producer. He's based in Nashville, worked with all sorts of people from Sturgil Simpson, Del McCaury Band, Michael Cleveland, Andrew Marlin, uh, Molly Tuttle, Steel Drivers. Uh, lots and lots of names you would recognise. He worked at a Butcher Shop studio, which is owned by John Prime and David Ferguson, up until it closed in 2020. Um, and after that, he moved to the Tractor Shed, where he recorded one of my favourite records of recent years, which is the Mighty Popular Record. Um, we chat about how he got into recording and his background, which definitely wasn't in string band music, and how he sort of transitioned into that, some of the sort of challenges along the way, what he learned from working at the butcher shop, um, how Tractor Shed has sort of partly been shaped around him and the way he works, and he's contributed to building that. Really fascinating conversation about I guess like what matters in music really, because we talk about recording, we talk about you know all the things that go into making a record, but also how some records that are far from perfect are just still the best records. We talk about what Sean sort of learned, his training as an audio engineer and the things that he sort of agreed with, the thing is he didn't. And it's uh it's fascinating just hearing somebody's approach to all this. Everybody has a different approach, but just hearing how Sean approaches kind of engineering and production and working with musicians, uh, really, really fascinating conversation. I enjoyed this one a lot. Um, I'll stick a link in the show notes to the traction shed studio so you can have a look at it. Um but that is it. I will let you crack on and have a listen to my interview with Sean Sullivan. Sean Sullivan, welcome to Bluegrass Jamalong. It's great to have you here. Thanks for having me, Matt. Appreciate it. Um I'd love to hear your kind of journey into working in the string band world as a kind of audio engineer, because it's not a world you necessarily grew up in, is it?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

No, not at all. I mean I I never um really listened to string band music or or bluegrass music until I started working in it. So my my familiarity with with bluegrass and uh string music is pretty much just from the people that I've worked with. So what is your background? Um well, um I kind of got into playing music myself as like a preteen, young teen. I I played guitar and um but I I didn't really take it very seriously in terms of like a career path. It was more just like wanted to have a a rock band with my friends. Um so my like education of music was pretty much like learning C, G, and D, and then I was like, I'm good. I've got I've got all the tools I need to start a band. Yeah. And um and I was always uh interested in tech technology as a kid, like I'm 39, so I'm kind of was at that um age of computers kind of entering our lives. Um and I had a close friend who um was an electrical engineer and kind of taught me how to build computers. Um so it was sort of this like intersection of I had a band and I wanted to play shows and I needed music, and recording sort of put those two interests together of of um messing around on the computer and being able to record my band so you could send demos and things to get gigs, and um I had really great parents who who were very encouraging of letting me play music and we rehearsed in the basement and um we would book shows and usually I would um like send a demo but not say how old I was. If like a band was in town that I wanted to see not old enough to go, maybe we can open the show. So I I spent a lot of like time and I I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio, and time going downtown at a young age and playing shows with an ex on my hand and uh disappointing bar owners that I a can't bring any friends because they're all underage and uh I'm fifteen or sixteen myself, so um but in that pro I guess in that process of being in in bands and stuff, I I knew that I wanted to do something in music as a career and uh engineering really sp spoke to me.

Matt 6:46

Yeah, I'm that I'm that bit older, and when I was in bands in my teens and twenties, it was all kind of full-track cassette recorders, and the idea of recording anything to one onto a computer just wasn't available to us at that point, really. Um was that was that kind of your route from the start, straight straight into digital?

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Uh I I mean I think the first thing I had was the the Porta Studio cassette recorder, you know, that was a hundred bucks. And um uh I think enough time has passed that I wouldn't get in trouble for this, but um I was kinda had um quote unquote stolen versions of some recording software. Like I had Cool Edit Pro, which was like Adobe's multi-track, and I ended up just getting like a you know a simple digital interface, like a USB $100 thing. And but then you had sort of unlimited overdubs, or you know, maybe it was eight or sixteen, so it kind of let me like build tracks, and there was this really amazing community, older community in in Cincinnati, like in playing in bands and doing original music. Uh, I think it was sort of like charming and entertaining to some older bands that were like, who are these kids that like like uh like I was kind of like a I don't know, indie rock, I guess. Um and kind of took me under their wing because that was of like different people who recorded themselves and their bands, and um so I was always kind of like the kid hanging out with older musicians and my tastes were always a little advanced, I guess, for for like a 14-15-year-old and and varied, and I just consumed music. I mean it was all all I did was listen to records and and want to be these bands, you know, and um so that was kind of my intro like getting into the computer and being able to multi-track at a young age. Part of it was like uh being kind of savvy on a computer and being able to find like this ripped version of software I couldn't afford. Um and then uh when I was 16, 16 or 17, and had a car, I used to go to like Sam Ash or guitar center, and you just kind of like you know, drool over stuff in the case. And um, I was there one day at Sam Ash and uh looking at recording gear. It was like a a like I maybe at that time I had like a an Mbox, which was like the the sort of personal version of Pro Tools. Um but you could only do like two channels at a time, and I wanted to record a drum set or something. And uh I was just looking at the mic cabinet and stuff, and this employee at Sam Ash uh asked me, it's like, well, you know, we have like 36 months financing on anything, you know. And uh I was like, well, you know, I'm sweats. Yeah, I was like, I'm 16, I work part-time at a used CD store. I don't really but and then he but he had me put my household income down. So I was like, Well, I guess I know what my parents make, I can put that on there, and I got approved for a Sam Ash credit card at 16 for like five thousand dollars. And I just without telling my parents or anything, kind of just bought, you know, a a 002, which was like the four-channel version of Pro Tools and some mics, and that sort of opened up my world to like recording my my band as a band. You know, like we could multi-track and and then in high school I recorded some other bands like that I was friends with, and that just kind of grew from there, really.

Matt 11:01

I think that's one of the hardest things when you start out as a band, particularly a band with drums, is like studio time is expensive. And you you know, to be able to have that facility to do stuff and make some mistakes without spending hundreds of dollars is really, really useful.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Yeah. And I remember we went and found like this studio on Craigslist and because we needed like a demo for the band, and it was just in his house, and it was probably like you said, it was probably a few hundred dollars, but we did, you know, four or five songs, and we just kind of like finished them, you know. It was like, and that was kind of the first time I think I had ever recorded live, like a f a full band. And um that was kind of like opening a whole new world instead of just like here's the click track and you build in, build in, build it, and or just doing something incredibly lo-fi, like with the Tascam, where it's like got two mics and they're pointed one left, one right, and that picks up the whole band, and it is what it is, you know? Yeah. So but but yeah, I had a pretty early introduction to to Pro Tools, you know, and but like self-taught, you know, you're just kind of like fiddling around with it and trying to figure it out, yeah.

Matt 13:29

Did you kind of hit a point where you started to think maybe the recording side of it was more interesting to you than the being the musician side of it?

SPEAKER_00 13:38

I I think by the time I got to where I was trying to decide what to go to college for, um and I feel like everyone just assumed that you must go to college, you know, and at my age. It was not even really like a a question of if but where. And I didn't have great grades in high school, so like I w I visited here in Nashville, uh Belmont University, which is a private school and very expensive, and I didn't really have the academics to get in there anyway. Um and then I w I ended up going to MTSU, Middle Tennessee State, and uh, which is a public school, it's a state school. Um, so tuition was a lot lower, and it's sort of getting into college is not um doesn't really have like a a high academic threshold, but to get into the recording industry, you kind of had to have certain grades and um to transfer in. So I ended up staying in Cincinnati for my freshman and sophomore year of college and just doing my general education and I still played in bands and um and I was like, well, maybe my this um you just maybe I I was I'm pretty um practical as a person, and I think at a young age I knew that having a a career as a recording engineer was difficult and not necessarily um a financially possibly stable option. Um so I was an education major, and I remember when I was like at that point where I was like, am I gonna transfer for this next year and try to apply at MTSU? Um kind of uncharacteristically for him, but my my dad sat me down and was like I he's like, you know, I my job is not my passion and I don't want you to settle for your career. You know, if if this is what you want to do, I want you to pursue it and at least try. And um that kind of gave me the the push to to go to move to Nashville. It was kind of his encouragement, you know, and uh I love my dad, but it it's one of those things where like him saying that to me carried a lot of weight because it's it was a little out of character to be that um sort of sensitive and open with me about, you know, pursuing your dreams.

Matt 16:36

And it's easy to presume at that age like you need to follow a straight kind of obvious career path. And like I so many people either know what they want to do at that age, but uh don't feel like it's a realistic career opportunity. Or they don't know yet, you know, like so many teenagers work it out later. And so many I remember being a kid and going to career guidance at school and saying, Oh, like I want to work in music, and they went, Well, that's not a proper job, so what you want to do is this. It's like, but I don't want to do that. That's not you know, so they kind of farm you off into, well, maybe you should be a teacher. It's like, yeah, I don't want to be a teacher. Like Right, yeah. There was there was like it felt like there was about six careers available to you, and they just tried to shove you down one of those routes. Yes. There's so many, well, you get a bit older and you realize all the jobs that are out there that you could do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

There's and I think uh my mom was a a preschool teacher, and um I think what appealed the honestly why I probably chose that as a a possible second career choice was uh you have the summers off. And I was like, well, I can I can be in a band and or you know do recording over the summers, or so it was still just like this compromise. So like I wasn't passionate about being a teacher. It was just sort of like you know, maybe the safe route, you know. So yeah, and that that's when I I kind of moved down to my my junior year, my last two years of school were here at in Tennessee, and I just stayed.

Matt 18:11

And what was that like when you got there, suddenly like surrounded by presumably better equipment and also lots of other people who shared that passion?

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Um you know, I I uh it was an interesting experience moving down here because I I was uh at a higher grade level, so I didn't really have that like school immersion of like you're living in the dorms or you're living with all these other people in your program and orientations and all these things. I I kind of like just dropped in. Um and you know, it's I probably I you know, I haven't really spoken too closely with anybody who like went to to Berkeley School of Music or kind of took like music as a education, but it's so um subject subjective, you know, like like sound and what's quote unquote good or bad. Um and I so that was a bit of a like adjustment period, you know, with a a few of my professors, you know, like I remember we had this class uh called critical listening, which was like you some of it was like you're gonna listen to this frequency and see if you can closely pick out what it is. But then some of it was like bring in a recording that you think is a good example of whatever drums or vocal sound or whatever, and uh my professor was very into like Steely Dan and like that sort of like recording is um perfection, you know, and that was not at all my interest. Um and I would bring in examples of things that I thought were good, and he would be like, that's like a three out of ten. You know, it's like this is a terrible recording, it's the drums are blown up or whatever it is, and I'm like, Well, I don't I don't know. When I put it on in the car, I turn it up and I sing along and it feels good. So that was a little bit of like this push against like academia and just your passion for music, you know, and there's there's sort of the like the ignorance is bliss sometimes of like not knowing what you're doing necessarily or or how something is done or listening to recording and critiquing you know the snare sound. It's just like I it's just a song I like, you know. But so there was uh uh like a love-hate thing with school, you know, there and but I loved being able to get into the studios and kind of immerse yourself in like uh a console and having a a big space and you know you're so young, it's sort of like you're and you'd get these blocks of time to work in the studio, and most of it was just trying to like remember how to use Apache Bay and hook it all up, and maybe you actually recorded 45 minutes of music and took three hours to set up, but uh it was always kind of fun and exciting, and I I met a handful of of of close friends over the years who have gone on to have careers in music and um but yeah, it was very I don't know. I I uh if if looking back, it's like I don't know if I would do it again but or if I would recommend it to someone else. But I also know that just when I graduated and had no idea what I was gonna do, it kind of at least gave me this thing of like, hi, I'm a MTSU graduate and I'm you know looking to do anything. And that probably helped me in my initial uh start of my professional career.

Matt 22:42

It's really interesting, you know, what you're saying about um like good sound being subjective, and it's true with like writing, with singing, with like all kinds of things. If something moves you, it moves you, and it might not be like the best sound, and there's plenty of great music that was recorded in the 20s and 30s on pretty primitive equipment compared to what we use now. Like there's plenty of that still sounds great as well. And I remember getting I did a I did a degree in pop music, and um I remember getting there and being slightly panicked in the first couple of weeks and thinking, Oh, we're gonna analyse this stuff so much, I'm gonna forget how to enjoy it. And we're gonna sit down and listen to kind of air quotes good music rather than like and of course like I got over myself and it was a great experience. But I did think at first, oh, we're just gonna take it all apart to the point where it's no fun anymore. Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Yeah. Yeah, and and and for A little while like listening to music wasn't fun, you know? And that's sort of the the the sacrifice you make when you sort of turn your passion into a job. You know, it's it's uh how do you keep that love for this thing that's also like what you're trying to do and you're comparing yourself to what others are doing or l listening to things academically, I guess, you know, just like analytically, but not necessarily musically.

Matt 24:14

Yeah, it's it's really interesting. And so like what what was the first job you got out of college? Like what was the first thing you did?

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Um, well kind of what it's funny, I I I had a very like I've really only had like three jobs, and one of them was for about six months, and the and the others have kind of just been all connected. But when I was getting ready to graduate, um, you know, there like everything, there's like uh trade magazines, and I I remember I was I don't remember if it was what what it was, but it was just in my house and on the back page there was um an interview with um this engineer musician uh Randy Coors, who at that time was doing a lot of Jim Lauderdale records, and I think I was familiar with Jim because I liked Yep Rock records and at at you know in the 2000s, like if you found a band you liked and they had a label, you would just like at least I would, I would just be like, oh, I want to hear every band that's on this record label. Yeah, yeah. And Yep Rock was kind of interesting because they they have such a wide variety of bands, and I really was familiar with them for a couple rock bands, like they were putting out this Canadian band, Sloan, that I loved, and this uh band called the Bigger Lovers, which I'm probably like their biggest fan. Uh but then that's how I knew about Jim, and I saw that Randy lived in Nashville, and I just emailed him out of the blue and said, Hey, I'm my name's Sean Sullivan, I'm graduating from NDSU. If you need an intern or assistant, uh, I'd love to meet. And I went in, met him, and was there for a few months off and on. You know, it's it was always a little complicated for me because I was I had graduated, so I wasn't like interning for college credit, which is sort of the like trade-off that people make. Um so I was just sort of doing it to learn and observe and um but one day when I was there, um, I cannot remember who he was sitting with in the studio, but um it was like the the second year of Dell Fest, I think. And uh whoever Randy was talking to was like, yeah, you know, they recorded all three days of the festival on a multi-track, but it was like a hardware multi-track, and they wanted to get it into Pro Tools, and they're like, Yeah, but you know, to do that, it's like in real time, you know, you hit play and dump it, so somebody has to sit there and uh listen to a whole festival, you know. And I was like, and they were like, and they don't have any money, and I was like, Well, if they have any money, I'll do it. And um at that time I was working part-time at a uh uh a gear rental company, and I thought, oh, that would be a nice way to like meet these studios, you know, like they'd come by and pick up a piece of gear and or I'd deliver it to them, and I was like, uh, yeah, and at this place I work part-time, we have one of those recorders, so I can just borrow that or rent it at a discount. And they were like, Well, yeah, great. And um so I went and did that at the butcher shop, which was um a studio that uh John Prine and David Ferguson, uh, who I'll bring up more in this talk, I'm sure, but I'm just gonna call him Ferg from now on. Uh that's what everyone calls him. But uh I went down there and I I met Ferg and the butcher shop was in this uh the offices of an old meat packing facility along the river. So it's this kind of worn down smokestack brick building. And then we were in this separate building that was the offices on the basement level. And it was just an open room that had literally hay bales wrapped in a packing blanket for baffles, you know, just cables on the floor. Um, and at that time, Ferg chain smoked like crazy, you know, and so it's like just this kind of gruff old guy chain smoking cigarettes, walking into this like essentially windowless room in the basement of this rundown part of town. And uh I met him and we I talked with him for about 30 minutes, and I think he got the vibe that I wasn't gonna rob the place or something. And he's like, and he called me Shane. He didn't even remember my name at first, but he's like, Shane, here's the key. Um, I'll come back on Monday, and but you can use the place until then to do this gig. And uh because I was just out of school, I was like, well, I'm gonna document all this and I'm gonna have like really detailed notes about everyone's set and who's where, and you know, try to, I thought about it like it was my final exam, you know, in school. And um got it done, and he walked in and I handed him my little folder I made of all my notes, and he was like, Yeah, threw that away in the trash. And uh he was like, uh, why don't you just keep that key and I'll call you? And uh that was I guess 2007, 2008, maybe, and I was there until it closed in 2020. Wow. So a little over a decade of my life there.

Matt 30:32

And is that kind of the point you sort of drift into working more in kind of the country roots string band world because that's where the clients were.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Yeah, yeah. Um Ferg was is probably most well at that time he was um until his passing, Johnny Cash's engineer, and he and he worked for uh Cowboy Jack Clement as his engineer, and then that led him to kind of working with Johnny, and he did like the American series records with Rick Rubin and Johnny Cash. Um and Johnny had passed by the time I had met him, but I think when I sort of started working there was sort of this like transition of him not really like that was kind of his life for a while. Like that was a big project, a lot of records, and a lot of time was spent on those, kind of taking them from what they were to what they became. Um and when I've and he had known the McCurries forever, uh, he grew up here in Nashville and has known them forever and is a bass player and you know, had little stints, you know, playing with Jimmy Martin, and it was kind of just around Bluegrass. And when I started working there, they were working on a a Del McCurry record, uh The Family Circle. And that and that was like I had never heard. I mean, I I had I like knew what bluegrass was and you know liked folk music, you know, and there were some um like senior songwriters that I love, but I no familiarity with Bill Monroe and Flatten Scrugs or any of that stuff, you know, or honestly, even classic country like Hank Williams, you know. I just it wasn't like my interest, I guess, at that time. Um which maybe gave me sort of this unique perspective working in the in that music because I I don't really have preconceived notions of of how someone else did it. You know, I I don't know how like I remember I think on that record they did white I see, this is like I'm gonna lose my any bluegrass credibility points, but it's like White House or White House Road or one of these, like a classic fast bluegrass song, and it kind of like blew my mind. I was just like, wow, this is like effortless for these people to play at this tempo, and Dell singing, you know, um then and now is just like so dis like discernible. You're like, you know it's him, and um they were like so um welcoming to me, you know. It's it's um I'm I'm really grateful for for everyone that I've met through that studio, but um it it's like the kind of magic of this genre, I think, is the the people, a lot of them, and just how gracious and generous they are, you know, and and uh that family has always been that way to me. And that was a good introduction. It's like there's no better introduction probably to bluegrass music than the Delma Curry band, but i I think them being such incredible human beings and an incredible family, and um that it kind of helped me stick with it, you know.

Matt 34:32

Um And was there some sort of learning curve in terms of like what was required of recording that kind of string band compared to some of the things you'd recorded before? And is it all kind of just transferable knowledge?

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Um you know, it's it's like it's interesting uh um because I Ferg is very like throw and go. Um he's not thinking too hard about it. You know, it's it's like you put a microphone in front of an instrument that sounds good and the in a somewhat obvious place, and the work's kind of done, like a lot of times, you know, it's like working in string band music is is hard. And I say this in trying to be like as nice and gracious as I can to people, but it's like when people sort of like expect you to do a lot of things for them on the computer, you know, and edit these things and comp these tracks and fly stuff around and take these little bits and moments and make it work, you know, it's there's there's a little like it's like putting a puzzle together. Um but at other times it's like you just don't want to screw it up because it's gonna happen in a moment. You know, it's it's not it's it's three minutes and then it's probably done, you know, besides some some fixes or something. So it's uh it was a good education to be like trusting your instincts and trusting the musicians and just paying attention, you know, and um and kind of lear yeah, I just kind of learned, you know, like the arrangements and um but I you know and and to this day I wish I had a better understanding of it. It's but just like harmony singing and listening for that, and yeah, it was sort of an that that's sort of the big education for me was just like harmony and um more so than like how do you record these acoustic instruments? Just like how what is it in a successful acoustic recording? Like what is the thing that makes it successful? And a lot of times it's arrangement and um it's not necessarily me, you know, like it's not it's not a genre of music where like often the production is the thing that is interesting. Uh it's the playing or the singing or the song. So it's just trying to be like stay out of the way more than anything, you know.

Matt 37:24

A lot of um kind of engineers talk about having like reference recordings that they go back to as like a great example of what they think records should sound like, just to kind of recalibrate their ears and just as touch points and other kind of acoustic or string band records that do that for you, that you just think that's just a great example of.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Or is it more for you always about the content rather than You know uh there there's been been moments like in time where I I ask people like, hey, what are in your opinion like the best recordings? You know, like what are your favorite records to listen to? Um and sort of exploring that sometimes it's there's a few people who come up kind of often, like um Gary Pachosa was pretty important in sort of like melding this sort of like pop sensibility to acoustic music. Um and I I I go back to the Tim O'Brien Traveler record a lot. That's that's probably my favorite. I mean, I just love uh the way it sounds and the songs. So that's and that but that record doesn't translate to a lot of because there's Kenny Malone playing percussion on a lot of it, and there's sort of this groove to it from that that makes it a bit unique. Um and I I don't remember why I had this CD. I think I maybe got it from my mom because I thought she would like it, but I had the infamous string dusters fork in the road record, which sounds very um rock and roll to me. Like there's just sort of this like power to it, and it's funny like getting to know some of the people who were in the band at that time. It's like to like, oh yeah, I don't ever think about that record very often. I was like, maybe we should go back and listen to it. I was like, yeah, I don't for whatever reason, it struck me, you know, when I heard it. And I'm I think that was Bill Vorn Dick, I think, on that record. Um yeah, though like the for those two stick out to me, you know, and um that but it probably probably Traveler by Tim O'Brien. I I still listen to that record for like pure enjoyment, which for me to listen to someone's music that uh I am really close with, like I I feel very like there's people here in Nashville that I consider like you know my uncles. You know, I I live in this, I moved here young and didn't have uh family or anything here. So Tim is one of those people for me. Um so it really says a lot about that record, in my opinion, that I that I listen to it for enjoyment, you know. And I love and I've heard a hundred Tim O'Brien shows in my life, but it's you know, when he pulls out some of those songs. And when he came out with this songbook recently, uh I was like, oh, now I know how to play some of these songs on guitar. I can like follow along and learn. So yeah.

Matt 41:05

I love that record. I love that record too. Um and so like your time at the butcher shop came to an end after sort of twelve, thirteen years because the studio stopped. You know, and it was that as was that as a direct consequence of John Prime passing because it was around the same sort of time, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 41:23

Yeah, kind of a lot of things coincided all together, like um sort of the the economics and geography of Nashville's changed a lot, you know, and um that complex we were at, which also had um the Nashville Jazz Workshop, which was um a venue, classroom space, rehearsal area for jazz musicians in Nashville. We were like the two kind of tenants, really. They had a separate building and we had ours. For a short time there was someone above us, like a little computer, two guys on computers. I don't know what they did. But um, but that property it was on kind of went from being worthless from a tax uh sense, like it was owned by a family of nine siblings, and this was like a property that was left to them that the the cost of tearing things down and putting something there was more than the property was worth. So it was sort of this, you know, nonprofit um no tax place. So like our rent was very low, and um, but that changed to where they were having to pay a ton of property taxes, and the building in the area was just went from being worth nothing to being worth tens of millions of dollars. So probably about 2019, we sort of knew that the time was gonna come someday. They were like they were just gonna come in one day and there'd be bulldozers and they'd be blowing stuff up, and it's time to go. But it all sort of ended up falling in place to where it was like pandemic, John's passing, property being sold. It kind of all sort of the universe sang like it's time, you know. But it had a good, it uh you know, a nice send-off, like musically. We we did this um Sturgeon Simpson record called Cutting Grass in there, and that was probably like the last record we did, because I think that was like around the time like the world first opened up, or maybe we felt okay being at around one another.

Matt 44:08

Um Yeah, it's funny. I remember that record as being that that time in in that funny old time we all lived through. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Yeah. Yeah. So that was we kind of did that, and I did like one, I think just like the day before we moved out or something, or packing up. I had like a nice session with Dell and Ronnie, you know, and so kind of squeezed in a few things to where it wasn't just like a sad closed door and didn't really get a send off, you know. So it it felt like it I wasn't really heartbroken. I I mean I was heartbroken when John passed, and that was really I don't because he he it just kind of put all that stuff into a lot of things in perspective for a lot of people, but um I'm glad that that my last time being in there wasn't you know packing his things away for his family. Um yeah, and then it was sh I think shortly after that um I started working here at the tractor shed where I am now.

Matt 45:24

And I read that um like one of the studios in the tractor shed was you sort of helped design it partly to accommodate some of your own.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Yeah. Um Mark Howard, who lives at the house and and built the studio, is I've known for a long time. He uh is a guitar player, mandolin player, um, was in John Hartford's band for a long time and is playing guitar on those Sturgel Simpson records, and he had an another studio in Berry Hill uh neighborhood of Nashville that I would work in occasionally, and this property was Grandpa Jones' property. He lives in his log cabin home, and the studio was the tractor shed, where he kept his tractor, and um he has always had studios, so he I you know Mark is in his mid-sixties and had kind of like had a lot of careers in music, and um, but just had always had studios and has built them himself and refurbished houses, and so I think it was kind of like a project for him, and I don't think he ever really necessarily thought it would be um so busy, but because it's a little outside of town, but so when he finished it, he he kind of did the control room and kind of a a main room that's not huge. I mean, it's maybe twenty by twenty-five, maybe I don't know, it's hard for me. I'm terrible with dimensions, but not large in a Nashville studio sense. But, you know, and his thought was like, I can put a string band in here and we can make records, you know, for fun, or you know, if somebody needs it. Um and I really had no idea where I was gonna go. You know, it's like you're in the pandemic, so you're like, well, I'm not gonna go anywhere right now, but I have all this stuff just piled up in my basement and you know, starting to get asked to do things and again, and um I've I've had there was a period of my life where I was working at uh Compass Records pretty regularly, and I was like, well, maybe I can just work out of there a little more often, you know, kind of rent the studio from Gary and Allison, and um but I when Mark finished this studio, I kind of approached him about working out of here, and I think the first thing we did was I think this this mighty popular record I love record. Well, thank you. Um that was like such a a joy to make because it was sort of all of us being let out of our houses for the first time in a long time, especially especially for Noam and Chris, because they had young children. I think Noam had just had their first kid and he was like hadn't I don't think he had left his house before he had come to the studio since March. Um so it was just sort of this like joy of them getting together to play music and get away from what we had all been going through. And um, you know, and that record, it's like that record everyone's in the same room together and it is pretty close, and um but it worked, you know, and and to where clients that I had from the butcher shop would come here and we'd work on things, and it got to the point to where it was busy enough to where Mark thought we could justify finishing out the second half of the building, which he had meant to keep just for storing his tractor. But um so we finished out the other two rooms, and then in the last year he added on a kitchen, which has been a godsend to have people have a place to go, and um, so it's kind of grown organically, you know, and in a very DIY way that I admire. You know, it's so many studios in Nashville now are owned by colleges or huge corporations and um or just this outside money, but I mean everything in this studio is like marker I built or wired, you know, so it it has a very like you feel a connection to it, you know, and um that that's special to me. Like that that kind of tie like being a kid who kind of grew up in in DIY rock music and punk music, the sense of community was always important to me. And community in bluegrass and folk music and the sort of like making it work aspect of the genre uh is a parallel that I see and connect with.

Matt 50:53

So that's sort of the correlation of sort of like my uh and there's something beautiful about that mighty popular record is an example of that you're saying about the sort of string band world being about people, and like all of those guys are in other bands. Yeah. Like other successful bands. Um and that's something you don't get that in other worlds where people are in a bunch of bands and they come together to have another band, and then they might go off and do a solar record, and they all come back and they've got two or three things on the go. And it's I mean, it's a lovely thing because you just get this cross-fertilization of stuff and you hear new people's things. And you were talking about that record and like recording in a small room, and it's it's funny, and this probably makes no sense whatsoever, but you can almost you can almost hear the eye contact in those seconds when you listen to that record. It's so intimate in so many ways. And it's just sort of it's just such a beautiful listen.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

Yeah, well, thank you. I mean, it's it's all them, it's all a tribute to them. But that that I think was important to that record. I mean, they're all, you know, five, six feet away from one another, you know, to and I and maybe we even tried to do no headphones, you know, it's like you could almost I mean that's that's something that'll if you can do it is an incredible thing. Like if you can all agree upon mixing yourself and blending yourself and sort of uh accepting, you know, uh flaws or mistakes and playing for the greater good. Um but that's it really can't be beat uh when recording, you know, having this you know, headphones are kind of a necessary evil, but can be sort of disastrous in terms of just like everyone having a listening to a different thing and um so if you can't if you can do it that way to where you're not relying on that to hear things. Um and being in eye contact is important. Those those things really like you said, it's like you don't really understand why something sounds that way, or why this music feels more connected, or um just like you like you said, it was like feels like people are breathing at the same time or moving at the same time, or like sure the tempo might fluctuate, but it's all happening together and it's natural, and um I think that that closeness and eye contact is pretty key to to making that happen on recordings.

Matt 53:40

And it sort of comes back to what you talk about, right, at the beginning, and the idea of like both communication and community and the idea like there's some beautifully, beautifully engineered records that leave me cold. And there are some, you know, wonderful bits of music that like are essentially like like you don't really get a better record than Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska. Yeah. But that is not a record that is gonna be held up as a fine example of recording by anybody. Sure. Yeah. And but that's the magic, right?

SPEAKER_00 54:11

Yeah, yeah, and that like um there's this band from Dayton, Ohio guided by voices that um were really hugely influential for me because you know, it's just like all their records are for for a period of time were like just made in their garage, you know, and they're out of tune and they don't sound good, but there's something about like the sort of low fineness of it that makes it almost more mysterious and interesting. And I remember um uh Jake Blunt, this fiddle player who's also an academic, he kind of came to this realization that sort of those sort of like source recordings of fiddle tunes, he's like, I I think I came to the realization that it wasn't the playing that I was drawn to, it was just the sound of them, which I always thought was really interesting. And, you know, and uh like when you listen back to the sort of you know, the uh seminal recordings of bluegrass music that aren't necessarily recorded by today's standards well, especially things in the fifth forties and fifties, um, you kind of wonder like what impact would those people have had it today, you know, like um but they sort of made the the limitations of technology almost work to their advantage because it's like undeniable that this is a good song or good singing or the passion in the voice, because it's like you're not being uh fooled by this like immerse high-fi listening experience, you know. It's like and like and it's like movies now, it's like a lot of music can be that way too, or it's like it leaves you cold because it's all not real, you know, and I think you can hear and feel realness and liveness, and um that's it's an interesting like progression for me. It's like I'm not the kid anymore in the room, you know. It's like I was always the the kid, and uh now there's times where I'm like the oldest person in the in the studio, which is kind of like it feels like that just hit me this year in particular. But uh it's I've seen sort of people my age and peers kind of go through this progression of their own playing and writing of like um going for perfection and destroying themselves playing and emotionally and just like pushing themselves so hard to to sort of accomplish these things that push their skills as far as they can go, and it's making those things sound effortless, but you know, it's immense effort and concentration and just striving to do things you haven't heard or didn't think you could do in the studio. And those times as an engineer, it's like I might have to sit and listen to a hundred takes of this solo. And it's sort of like being put in this like intimate place of like uh like seeing into someone's world and how they create and process and just being like patient and letting them work it out and trying to observe like when do it does it feel appropriate to give input, or is there something that they're stuck on that maybe I can help with, you know, just with a simple term or phrase or be like, hey, listen back to this thing that happened 20 takes ago. I think you were on to something, and maybe um so there's I've I've kind of seen my people my age and musicians kind of go through that period where they're kind of like, I need to play banjo as good as Baylor Fleck did on Drive, or you know, and my fiddle playing needs to be as good as Stuart Duncan's, or these people that you know, the sort of like peers, uh, you're the legends, you know, and um and then it sort of changes to where it's like actually my instincts were right, and my first attempt or my second attempt really was appropriate, you know, and it's good. I need to accept that it's good and um moving on from that, yeah.

Matt 59:06

It's so funny because when I interviewed Noam about the Mighty Poplar album, he said, you know, they like recorded it all pretty quickly, came out with some rough mixes, and then spent a long time like mixing this record and kind of ending up with a realization that like it wasn't that far off in the first place, you know. But you just you get in these little loops of looking for connection.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

Yeah, and and you know, I I I don't necessarily like I guess in terms of records I've worked on in terms of what I think of as a long time, like I but I remember there being long stretches with that record of like we recorded it and then it you know there's a little like putting or finding the best take or maybe putting a piece from one take onto the next take. But because of everyone's schedules, I remember there was a a pretty long gap before we put like harmonies on it. So he didn't do that live. All the lead vocals on that record are live. But then it was sort of like a year later, I think we had a day in the studio to like sing harmonies, and then I think a year later it was mixed, you know, and because that was when everyone's schedules lined up, and God, Noam is uh an incredible presence in the studio, and I remember there was one song, it might have been I can't uh that kind of fast instrumental that he does. Um and you know, there's a tendency, and for me anyway, sometimes it's like you you like focus on the minutiae, you know, and like trying to turn up every little bit of something that happened. And I probably like overworked that song. And um there was a moment where he was we like just kind of set baseline levels, and he just said, Okay, from here, nothing gets turned down. He's like, We're just gonna, if something doesn't seem like we'll just turn it up. But nothing should ever be quieter than this. Like we should never be like sacrificing someone else for someone, you know, and which is sort of like sometimes you get into these things that are just like so um simple, you're like, oh, let's just get this to a place where like it all sounds good not touching anything, and it feels kind of settled. And then when someone needs a moment brought up, we do that, but not start with the tweaking and the you know, mining of stuff. And it he was that was a good like perspective shift, you know, of just being like, oh yeah, we just we're overthinking this, you know, and it's that's easy to do where you kind of get hyper focused on a singular bar of music and you kind of forget the other five mu minutes. Yeah, you lost the plot, you know.

Matt 1:02:12

Yeah, yeah, and all those details, you know, like it's sort of like you talked about before, you know, all of that work goes in and then you sort of want to leave it at the door and come out with a piece of music that communicates something of one person to another person, regardless of any of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:31

Yeah, you know, and it's I I I think when I try to think about like why uh I'm I continue to work in this genre because it of like and I'm so blessed to work with people with such talent that really could work with anyone. And I sometimes, you know, when you're in your own thoughts, you're like, why in the world are they working with me? It's like, what do I have to I can't, you know, I can't offer insight on like what to do on the banjo, you know, I or something. Or like I can't give too much, I can't help you arrange a three-part harmony. If you, you know, I can tell you when something's right or wrong, but I can't sing it back to you the way it should be. Uh but I think it's sort of like my patience for things like that is sort of maybe my my skill beyond like an audio engineer or being able to produce a string band. It's it's sort of like I I think I have the perspective of like it takes as long as it takes, and it's you know, you're not inconveniencing me exploring this thing because it's forever. And I I think it's like for me, I'm here every day in the studio, and this is like my nine to five, but for most people who come to the studio, it's something they only get to do once every couple years, or may only do once in their entire life. So you kind of have to keep that perspective of like it they need they have to live with this forever, and I'm not gonna tell them that like it's good enough, or you know, hey, we gotta go to lunch or whatever. It's like um I'm here, uh it I'm grateful that you've like let me into your creative process, which is very intimate, and I don't ever want you to think about me in here being like inconvenienced or annoyed that you know it's taking you 15 minutes to get your instrument in tune. You know, it's like it's fine.

Matt 1:04:56

And I I've in my I've never really asked anybody, but it's like, well, maybe that's maybe that's my like my superpower, just patience and understanding and you know I think sometimes those kind of like and a music producer and engineer, like the roles can cross over, and the role of a producer is so varied depending on the project and the but sometimes the more kind of human skills are the more important ones than being able to put the mic in the right place and understand like lots of people can do that, but what lots of people can't necessarily do is help somebody midwife a difficult musical baby, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:41

Yeah, yeah. I mean it it's like this job is really psychology, you know, and and when I think about r records I've I've worked on, it's the things I remember are like the human interactions and the relationships with the people, a lot of times more than the music. Um so I I think like that's important to the like for me, it's like the things I value are the friendships and and the time I get to spend with these people, not just like getting to hear them create music and uh helping them, you know, be the person that takes this thing from the room to the speakers, but also just like the friendships, you know, and it's it's like you're in this like intense relationship with people while they're making a record for a very short amount of time. And then there's often where you don't see those people for a while, you know, but you have this like connection and bond that like when you do see each other, it's like there's this sort of like understanding, it's like family, you know.

Matt 1:06:58

It's funny, making a podcast is is sort of similar in that like I can spend an hour chatting to a musician, a producer, a writer, or whoever. And we are the only two people in that conversation for that hour, and it's a really intimate thing. I'm like, I may never see them again, I may never talk to them again. Like it may be over a video call like this, it may be in a studio. It's but you share, you share a thing and nobody else is there for that. Um and that's why I do this, really. I just enjoy the conversations and the connection and the to get to spend on like what for me here is a you know random Tuesday night in my week. Yeah. I get to spend an hour having conversations like this and I love it. Um I've very much loved this one. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:39

Oh, thank you. Yeah. It's been yeah. It's I've I'm uh the the people in this genre, and I'm sure you've experienced this interviewing them, you know. It's like you they touch your lives in a in a short amount of time and an immediate amount of time. Sometimes it's with music, and sometimes it's just their their personalities and their um like the kids would probably say their aura. It's like there's just certain people, it's like you're around them, and it's like, ah, I understand this. It's like you make me a better person, you inspire me to be a better human, all these things, and it's like, and also you're an incredible singer, or you're an incredible musician, and you write beautiful, poignant songs, and it's like what what a treat, you know, to get to do that for a living.