Renée Fleming and Béla Fleck - The Fiddle and the Drum

My guests on the podcast this week have an astonishing 24 Grammy awards between them and they represent two musical world I love - the first is bluegrass and string band music and the second is opera.

Renée Fleming and Béla Fleck join me to chat about their wonderful new collaboration The Fiddle and the Drum, a project which explores Renée's long-held love of American folk and Appalachian music. The album includes guest appearances from several musicians from in and around the string band world, including Dolly Parton, Vince Gill, Jerry Douglas, Aoife O'Donovan, Sierra Hull and Sarah Jarosz.

We chat about the role folk music played in Renée's upbringing, the similarities and differences between roots music and the classical world, how the record came together, why folk songs are so powerful and what it means to be an eclectic artist over the course of a long career (plus much more).

This was a wonderful conversation to get to be part of. Thanks to Renée and Béla for taking the time to chat and particular thanks to Collin Citron for helping make this happen.

You can find out more about the project and order copies of the record at reneefleming.com, along with info on live dates for The Fiddle and the Drum and the project Renée mentions, Music and the Mind 

You'll find info on Béla at www.belafleck.com, including BEATrio and the collaborations with Toumani Diabaté, Zakir Hussain and Chick Corea mentioned in the episode.

Transcript

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One of the things that fascinates me about folk music is for me, there's a very quick and direct line to emotion in folk music, and I don't even understand quite why. It's maybe sort of genetically we know these tunes, they've been with us with human beings for so long, and you know I'm very interested in the science of uh art, and it's true that that we just don't evolve very quickly, and so when somebody plays anything on a guitar or a stringed instrument, a banjo, I'm there. I fe- I feel immediately. There's there's like no there's no entry, it's already there. Hi, it is Matt, and you listen to Bluegrass Jamalong the podcast for anyone and everyone here loves Bluegrass. Hey everybody, welcome back to Bluegrass Jamalong. I have two guests for you today, and between them they have a huge 24 Grammy Awards. One of them comes very much from the world we talk about week in, week out in this podcast, and one comes from outside it, but from a world that I love very much as well. They're here to talk about a new collaborative project that has been in the making for several years and is out now, called The Fiddle and the Drum. I really love it. Um my guests are Baylor Fleck and Renee Fleming. Now, even if you're not familiar with the world of opera, you've probably heard the name Renee Fleming at some point. She is one of the outstanding talents of her generation, um, much as Baylor is of his. They're very similar age, um, have a lot in common in terms of backgrounds with music, uh, and we'll get into a bit of that in the episode. But we are going to chat about the fiddle and the drum, which is a wonderful record. Um yeah, it's fascinating for me approaching this from both a string band perspective and an opera perspective, because I've spent a lot of time listening to opera, reading about it, um, going to see it. It's you know been as much part of my musical journey as bluegrass in many ways. Um, and so yeah, this is a unique opportunity for me, and I really enjoyed it. Two absolutely iconic musicians um and two people with really interesting perspectives on what music and music making mean as well. So we're going to dive into this record. Some of the people who guested on this include Dolly Parton, Sarah Gerose, Eva O'Donovan, Sierra Hull, um Jerry Douglas. There's a whole raft of people on this record that you will recognise. Um, and I've been really enjoying listening to it and I've very much enjoyed talking about it. I will stick a link in the show notes to where you can go and find out more about the record, where you can order a copy of the record, um and keep your eyes open because Baylor and Rene will also be doing several live shows for this, including some festivals, some iconic venues. Um yeah, I'll um I'll I'll share some details about on social channels so you can see where to go and find those as well. Um, but yes, listen to this episode. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. This was a fascinating one for me to get to do. Um, really enjoyed this project, but really particularly enjoyed this conversation. So thank you to Renee and to Baylor for taking the time to talk to me about this. Um Rene Fleming, Baylor Fleck, welcome to Bluegrass Jamalong. It's a delight to have you both here. Thank you. Great to be here. And I'm really fascinated to have this conversation because it's such an interesting record on so many levels. Um, I would love to start with just how this project came about because my understanding is that it's quite a long history of you two kind of talking about this before it came to fruition. Definitely. Billy, you want to take it this time? Sure. Um Renee, do you know what year it was? Like it was in the 2000s, late 2000s. It was a long time ago. Yeah. Well, I uh I don't remember. My short-term memory's gone at this point. But uh well, my long-term memory's gone. Well, all my memory's gone. But um yeah, um someone got in touch with me, asked me if I'd be interested in working with Renee um on a a project that was uh you know folk bluegrass uh I guess what we now would call Americana, I guess. Um and I was thrilled because I've I've always been a fan of of great vocalists, even though I tended to work in the bluegrass uh world and um and instrumental world where where I didn't work with a lot of vocalists, especially from the 1990s on. That's pretty much in the instrumental world. So I was thrilled at the opportunity to work with someone of her ability and stature. And um uh so she came to Nashville and and we tried some stuff, and it really went very well. Um, but it just wasn't the right time for it yet, you know. So it sat and uh and we we went on through life, but we kept sort of bouncing uh into each other every once in a while here or there. And um we would both always say, Oh yeah, that stuff was so cool. Wish we would do something with that at some point. And at a certain point, we hit the point when we both said, Yeah, let's do it and and um let's let's let's get this done. And um that's basically it. It just took a long time to fruish, uh as they say. And it sounds Rene like uh kind of folk music has been in your life for for many years. It's not a recent thing, it's something you grew up with, you know. I believe you were playing guitar, writing songs as a teenager. Yes, yeah. I even learned dulcimer, and uh, you know, it just was in my family, we were all musicians, and my grandfather really played fiddle and drums. It was a lot of church music, actually, in the center of Pennsylvania, uh kind of Pentecostal. Um, you know, they'd have these these gatherings, these massive gatherings, and and so uh, you know, I learned some tunes from him even. I can still remember one of the tunes he taught me on his violin. So yeah, it was uh a great introduction. And there's something very American about this as a project, and it's you know, both of you through your careers have explored kind of American music, music not from the Americas, and sort of the intersection of of both of those things. But there's something just extraordinarily kind of timely about this coming out around the 250th anniversary of the United States. Yeah, I think Americans are kind of audacious, though, you know, you say you're not allowed to do something, we want to do it. You know, so if some you know someone says, Oh, you're not allowed to play jazz on the banjo, or you're not allowed to sing folk if you're an opera singer, there sort of gets you back up a little. Well, why not? You know, I I just want to experience all of these musical creative um worlds and uh and learn. Um, you know, be a perennial student. Uh and you and you do that by trying things and doing things. And I mean you don't have to release them all, but but it's really good for you as a musician. And and it makes your uh uh actually my wife has a thing, she says, anything you learn that's hard makes everything else you do easier. I think it's pretty brilliant because um it it also inflects um the things that you do all the time if you learn something new. It changes the the thing that you always do and makes it new again. You have new things to bring to it. So um hopefully it'll this will work that way for both of us. Seems like it is. Well, I went to hear um Baila actually in Paris with a colleague of mine, Susan Graham, because we were both singing at the Paris Opera, and this was the beat trio, so this was his newest album. And she turned to me and she said, because Susan's a wonderful musician too, and she said, Watch them tap. They're tapping in four, and they're playing anything but. And and then they have to remember where they are in these long, like ordinary improvisations, and we were just it just blew our minds that the the level of musicianship. So and he's applied that as producer to this album as well. It's been fascinating to watch him tinker with it and and work on it now. Well, probably it's been always interesting. It's interesting here you talk about kind of stretching yourself and doing things that are difficult. I was flicking back through your memoir, Renee, um, earlier today, and there was a lovely point where you were sort of thinking about longevity and had consulted a sort of sports psychologist. And essentially the the advice was just keep stretching yourself, don't defend where you are, keep pushing for more, and that's the only way to keep going artistically. And um, you know, it's such a kind of a joyous thing when you see people continue to do that through a career. And I think when people have um the time when you're fortunate enough to have longevity, because most people don't, it you can really experiment and bring your audience with you. Uh, and that's that's kind of the joy of it. And the audience, sometimes a lot of the audience will want to hear your greatest hits, and that's it. But but a lot of people come along and and they're really interested to see what you do next. I mean, I'm sure Vayla and I have a lot in common in that respect because I've branched out pretty early on and started doing jazz, hard rock, um, different projects, Broadway, uh, because I just kept wanting to experiment with my voice. Well, they also say, you know, when you when you uh exercise, you get the most benefit from doing a muscle group that you've never done before. And uh so I I also feel like you have the potential when you do something new to you to have a much greater growth curve. Uh it'll go, you know, you can learn a bunch really fast in a new medium. Where if you're working in the medium, you're always uh in, it's it's almost like these uh Olympic runners who who win by a quarter of a second or a hundredth of a second. You get like this better at something, but it's it's there's smaller, you know, incremental type things where if you actually throw yourself into something you haven't done before, you're gonna you're gonna make these great leaps and you can get um addicted to that feeling of like, wow, I just I actually learned something. Like it's not just me doing my thing, it's I I I know something I didn't know before. So I think all and there's also a tendency to to look at uh folk music as being less or any kind of music being more or less than others. And I don't think musicians really feel that way. Um and it's certainly not true because some of the most primitive music can be so powerful, and some of the most complex music can be, can leave you, you know, with nothing. You know, it can go either way. So it's it's about the quality of music, not the complexity or the style. It's about like what what are you bringing to it? What kind of um um idealism or or or or uh integrity are you bringing to it? And there's such a rich tradition of kind of classical and operatic composers weaving folk melodies through their compositions, and you know, the that whole Venn diagram of where stuff crosses over, and and I think that's one of maybe the joys now of but there's so many things that I miss about physical formats and you know and all of that and the way we found music and liner notes, but something about the post-tower records world where genres sort of not important anymore because you don't have to file it anywhere. And and just the you know, there's something in that as well, I think. Yeah, that used to be miserable for me because everybody wanted to put me in the bluegrass uh bin that when there were bins, and and uh and I was uh I was trying so hard to pull the banjo out of just being seen that way. And and I was making records with the the flectones, and it was they were clearly not bluegrass records. There was nothing uh very bluegrassy about it at all except me. And and yet they kept ending up in the bluegrass bins, and it was a it was a battle, and it was frustrating at the time. Now I'm just glad I'm somewhere. You know, back then it was really frustrating, you know, trying to that's how I knew about Bela because I was a big fan of the of Bela and the Flectones, because I come from j a jazz uh background, actually, um in addition to classical. And then I discovered, I mean, he's I think you sent me your your uh album that you did in Africa, and it was just amazing. The whole project was incredible. Just so thinking out of the box. Well that that tells you you know, tells you a lot when you go and see see music that's just passed down from family to family and father to son, and and these traditions are continued and continued and continued. And I was playing with Tumani Gibate for quite a while, and he would always say he was the 20th in uh in line on the core of cora players, you know, in his family. Um and he you know he embroidered a little bit, but but it was there was something to it, you know. And there's a really interesting point that you make, Baylor, um, about talking of simplicity and complexity in music, um, in the the sort of notes that came with this about folk songs being so simple and therefore potentially being able to carry a lot and be reinterpreted, and because yeah, they're the they're a fairly simple palette to begin with. One of the things that fascinates me about folk music is for me, there's a very quick and direct line to emotion in folk music, and I don't even understand quite why. If there's if if maybe sort of genetically we know these tunes, they've been with us with human beings for so long. And you know, I'm very interested in the science of uh art, and it's true that that we just don't evolve very quickly. And so when somebody plays uh anything on a guitar or a stringed instrument, a banjo, I'm there. I feel I feel immediately. There's there's like no there's no entry, it's already there. You know, sometimes it seems to me that uh when you play something new for someone, they go, they listen with a and their heads kind of cocked, and then they finally go, yeah, it reminds me of this or that, you know, and then they put it into a context instead of just taking it in as what it is. But there are archetypes uh uh musically that that are familiar, and then when you build on them, people can relate to them because it's something they've heard before, but it's still different. Uh and I think that's true. Like you there is uh I think you were talking about this yesterday about um about part of what a listener needs is is familiarity and part of what they need is surprise. Yeah. And a good jazz player, like improvising, I think means surprising, you know. Yes. Um so uh but if it's too much surprise, it it becomes uh uncomfortable. So you know, everybody has their own line they draw about the music that they can handle and that they like. And generally people uh really bond to music that they heard in their you know, from 15 to 30, you know, that it that sticks, you know, and and uh and uh not everybody continues to open up and explore uh as they get older than those years, you know, music music operates different for different people, obviously. I'm just babbling here. Stop me. Well, and you know, that's one of the things that's interesting about patients with dementia or Alzheimer's disease, is they still know all the tunes from that time. Right. Uh it's embedded in the in that in the um uh the part of the brain that's ancient and it's it's why it's affected by the disease a little bit later. But I think, you know, we all think about now, you know, well what what am I gonna be singing when I'm when I'm uh, you know, at at the end of my life if I'm fortunate enough to live long. So it it's it's true, but I think these songs are timeless. They really are timeless. And they're not easy. They require it's it's like Mozart. It's hard to be simple. It takes a huge amount of technique to be able to control what it is that we need to convey in something like this. And do you do you find that um like as you've and as you say, Ray, you've been, you know, kind of dealing in many different styles and genres for the past 20, 30 years, this is not a new thing for you. Did you find through that journey that you'd approach songs differently if they were not from the classical kind of operatic world? Or does it all just feel the same to you? Uh I would liken it to a stylistic change, which we do automatically in classical, if we're singing in French, you know, a certain 17th century repertoire versus 19th century, it's always different. Um, it's not just the language, it's the style of whatever part of the repertoire it is. And it's true if I'm singing a music theater song, or I I now when I did give recitals, I sing a lot of different kinds of music. I use a microphone, I put it down, I pick it up, I put it down. So, and I find I I thought the audience would be shocked when I did that the first time. And they came right along with it. They didn't even bat an eyelash. So I was surprised. People are more willing to um explore with their favorite artists than we sometimes think. I think it's really true. I think sometimes that's the role that artists can play, is you know, I mean, I am a huge fan of Chris Theley, for example. And if Chris Theleely says, put your coat on, we're going over here, you go with him. You might be confused about what happens when you get there sometimes, and you might not see what he sees. But I'm always going to go, okay, if that's where we're going, let's go and have a look. And I think that's I think that's something an eclectic artist, it's a real gift because it takes people to places they wouldn't go to before. Yeah, I think there's something you heard out last year, which just it was extraordinary. Yeah. Where he sings and plays, and you know, what a brilliant guy. Yeah. No, I I think some people will go with you and some people won't. Um, but I think what I what I learned after I had had my band for a number of years and it were getting into like being together for 10 years and longer, that um it was actually boring to be the same um over and over and keep coming back with the same band. But we also had a podium, like as we were like doing very well as an instrumental group, and a lot of people were checking us out, and I was like, well, I think they'll like us even better if we turn them on to our best friends that are unbelievable musicians that they've never heard before, or open into another world, um, you know, invite people to join us. And and maybe like uh, here's a funny thing, but like some people that are incredibly well known outside of the world of bluegrass, for instance, um, maybe the bluegrass people don't know them at all. So I was like, well, I'm gonna introduce them to like these guys that are gonna blow their minds, you know, Zakir Hussein, Chick Korea. Like, I get to introduce Chick Korea to the bluegrass community that's not paying attention because they're insular, you know, and and um and some people go for it and some people don't. Like with me, some people there's a core group of people that follow me that will try anything that I do. Uh, and there are people that are like waiting to see what they think or what they heard, and like a year or two later, when I'm ready to move on to the next thing, all of a sudden the crowds are there after I've built up this like the B trio is a good example. We started with the B trio about a year and a half ago, and it was, you know, it was back to smaller rooms and smaller crowds, you know. Um, and uh and now that we're about, you know, we're kind of at the end of this uh album cycle and this period, people are coming out like crazy and like, where were you guys? You know, you know, don't you know me by now that if you like the other things I do, you're gonna like this? But no, they have to certain percentage of them have to just come to it and take their time to get there. And that has to be okay. You know, if you uh if you want to do the same thing or things that just draw an audience, then you make different decisions. Um, but you might your career might be less long-lived because you're you're not uh you're not putting new things in the pot to to keep it uh vibrant and fresh. It's like that um the the John Hartford quote that somebody told me the other day is don't don't get famous for doing something you don't enjoy. That's that I you know if you're gonna you're gonna go where you need to go as an artist, that's your job anyway. Well that's why I left New Grass Revival because we were trying so hard to get country singles, and I was like, if we get a country single, I'm gonna be stuck. If we actually get a hit record in this band, I'll be I'm never gonna get to, you know, I'll have to do that song for the rest of my life, and I just couldn't couldn't bear it. As much as I love the band, I didn't think that's what we should be doing, you know. But uh that's I'd really love to ask you both about kind of how you assemble the material for this record because for all the things we were just talking about with folk songs and them being interpretable and having a new life in different contexts and with different voices, there's also like there are more modern songs on here. Um and I'm thinking particularly of um the fiddle and the drum, the Joni Mitchell tune, that had this context in the end of the 60s with a certain kind of protest movement, but it also resonates extraordinarily today. And while the Iraq War was on it, there was a the Perfect Circle version that resonated again. Um and some m modern songs can do that as well. Yeah, El Elvis Costello uh his song uh um the the the the The Scarlet Tide uh is another example of a modern song, uh probably more modern. But um, you know, when we picked out these songs from a list that um Renee's team had put together, I assume they were things that Renee really liked, and I looked at them and I said, Well, I I sure love these ones. What do you think? And we came to a consensus on the first ones that we demoed way back in 2000, whatever. And then it was kind of uh it unconsciously we picked songs that seemed to tell a story. If you stopped and looked at what the what the lyrics were saying and what the songs were were about. And so when we came back to it and were really making the record, we think, well, what is missing from this story? What parts of this story need to be completed? Because we had six things we were really into, and then we found uh that's when we picked um you know the other songs, both Pretty Bird, um Fiddling the Drum, and uh and there was a third one, um Oh the cuckoo. And they all fit this kind of storyline that that seemed to have been dictated by the songs we were already attached to. Yeah, I love the the by the way, I I I do all the research for my recordings and repertoire. Uh I've just never been able to Relegate that to anybody else, but it's it's hugely time consuming and it's the most fun just to explore a world that I'm unfamiliar with. I mean, I discovered Roscoe Holcomb, who I love. There's just something so almost inhuman about that sound. And Hazel Dickens, I hadn't I didn't know, and same same reaction to her. And it was just so much um so extraordinary to kind of get through all that. I knew the main folk songs because we do we do a lot of Americana and classical music and have done for a long time. Um I was just coaching, I'm here at Wolf Trap, and I was just coaching a young senior with uh Shall We Gather at the River. So those, but those titles are the ones we're familiar with. But this was a lot of exploration that it was completely different. And was there something, did you know there was a particular thing you were looking for? Or was it like was there a feeling, was there a theme emerging that you were looking for songs, or was it just I'll note when I hear it? Well, I was sort of from the school of Leave No Stone Unturned. Like I don't want to miss something, you know, or FOMO, you know, it's two two uh little phrases there, but but um when it was Bayla who mentioned uh fiddle and the drum, I think, you know, and I was the biggest Joni Mitchell fanatic. Actually, we shared that a little bit being fans of hers when we were young. And um so I said, Yeah, I love that song. She sang at a cappella. It's it's uh it's beautiful. We had no idea when we recorded this that it would now be so relevant. But it tied in with the Scarlet Tide, which we had looked at, and at the time we weren't sure it fit with the other songs because the other songs were all, you know, m much, much older uh and and didn't delve in that direction. But we did it anyway, and it it it's so special, you know, such a great song. Well, it's really interesting because you know you've the storms on the ocean on the record has some like reharmonization compared to the versions people may know. And the joy of something like fiddling the drum is like in Joni's version, there is no harmony because it's just a cappella. So you can sort of take, I mean it and it suggests certain harmonies to you when you listen to a cappella, but you can kind of go anywhere with something like that. Yeah, but there is a version of it that she did with piano as a demo where there is harmony. Oh, I believe that's what I recorded yet a little bit. I had all the chords written out, but then when we started recording, it was so clear from the way um uh Renee and Jerry were playing it that uh they didn't need to be imposed on uh with this harmony that they had to stick to, it could be much more free form, um, which is more like the way she sang it. But but originally there were implied harmonies that were interesting. Um, maybe we mess with that some other time, but it it it just felt like Jerry is such a free, loose, uh, spontaneous player that um the less you tell him, the better things go. I've learned over years, you know, I've known him since we were teenagers, and I I've learned um, you know, I mean Chris Theley can take all that information and you know, and like, okay, like a like a typewriter perfect. Jerry needs to feel things. He has to feel things, and he they have to come out, and when they come out of him, he's digested them and they and they come out of him naturally. It's just some of the most amazing, beautiful, uh timeless playing that anybody in the world has ever done. So I was just hoping to stay out of the way on that one and and and not, you know, I was all excited about implying this new harmony that most people didn't know about on the track, but it it wasn't necessary and it just went to another place completely. Yeah, I was really blown away by his playing, uh and and also the virtuosity of his playing. But Stuart Duncan also really surprised me because I remember thinking, what is it about this violin playing? The vibrato is slower, it's soulful. I mean, there's there's a a soulfulness to this music, I think, that the players have all picked up. Yeah, I think that's a that's a lovely point about both of them. I mean, I you know, I love both of their playing in many, many different contexts. Um, and there's there's a there's something about this, it's really interesting coming at this from two angles, because I'm a big fan of bluegrass and string band music, but I'm also a big fan of opera. Um and it's sort of I more naturally approach this record from my string band perspective and my string band head. Um and so it's just interesting hearing these players, and there's something string band music is often very conversational, um, and there's something about this record that leans more in the direction of art song, if that's not a clumsy way of describing it, in that instead of listening to conversations, you're sort of listening to short stories or pet pictures that have been painted for you a little bit more. Um, and there's something really beautiful about it. There's a a lovely arc to the record and something quite cinematic about it. Um, was was there an intention about kind of what this would be before you started it, or did that emerge as you went? I think the songs dictated it, and and us trying to figure out how to support Renee um on them kind of pointed us in certain directions. And then again, once you start to establish a direction, then you you start to um uh look for cohesion with the other songs, but also difference. Because if they all the songs go the same way, then it becomes monotonous too. It it's uh the whole record doesn't tell a story. I'm a big fan of albums like Sgt. Pepper, Blue, you know, uh uh Randy Newman's uh uh Sail Away, the um records that just tell a story, you know, you just go from thing to thing, but they're cohesive, and yet every song is so different from each other. So I think as a fan of all that kind of music, I was uh and it with the pr in the producer's seat, um feeling a lot of um pressure to you know to deliver something uh that was worthy of of Renee uh trusting me to do this. Um I was trying to think about that a lot. But a lot of it was dictated by the music, you know. And did you come to this, Renee, with kind of much of a brief as to what you wanted from Baylor? Was it very much here are some songs, let's see where we get to? Yeah, I really was very trusting with him. It's obviously not my world. So it was kind of a relief to just sit back and say, take it away, because uh and he did a fabulous job. But what amazed me was uh I'm used to, you know, it's so expensive to record. Um, has been traditionally for me because you're paying a whole orchestra to sit there. So you get through things as quickly and efficiently as you can, and that's it. And then you work with the material you get from that session. But Baylor was willing to keep going back and and tinkering and kind of just looking at it again and changing things. And I was still awestruck by his uh, and I don't even think it was because out of a sense of a perfectionism, which is what it would be in our world, I think it was more what else can I mine from this material? And I mean, the the my favorite example is the trio, uh what he made, uh what he turned into a round and a trio in a can and with Pretty Bird, which I think is just so special. Yeah, it's an absolute it's a beautiful thing. Um did that how how was that assembled? Did you begin with a vocal and add other people to it, or was that recorded with everybody together? No, it started out just as uh uh you know something to try. In fact, it was the end of the session. Jerry and I and Renee did a s a special session there near the end in Nashville with just the three of us, um, and we did uh we did fiddling the drum and uh cuckoo. And and this was the last thing, and I think Jerry had taken off, and and Renee said, let's let me take a shot at this. And and it was just gonna be a solo. Uh, but she just she really did some extraordinary things, including using the only place that I I heard her kind of using her high range and some of the what I maybe I'm incorrect, Renee, but I felt like we were using some different parts of your voice. Totally. And I was like, Why not? I mean, this is your version of this song, so I I was all for it. Um, so when we had this arrangement of it solo, I thought, well, that's it, we're done. That's the end of the record. Renee by herself, just sailing away into the distance, perfect arc, you know. But she kept saying, I think we should have some people sing on it. And I was like, Oh, what can we do that's gonna be as good as you singing this by yourself? And it occurred to me this idea that um that it was around, um, that the song worked as around. And I kept thinking it and wondering about it, and it was one of those you know, voices in your head that you're like, Would you shut up? This is you know dumb. So you know, stop bothering me with this idea, but it kept coming back. So finally I I actually took her her vocal and arranged it and you know, repeated it three times, you know, uh staggered, just to hear what it sounded like. And I sent it to Renee. I said, I do you think I'm on on the right track here? Is it can you get behind this? And she she was like, Yeah, go, go, keep going, see where you get. You know, and uh and then it was about finding people that could actually do it because to to do what she did is not within most uh folk or bluegrass or Americana singers ability. And so it was tricky because we were talking to a lot of different people trying to think of who should we get, who should we get? And I I just felt like we ended up with the people that could actually do it. Not not that the others wouldn't have been great and it would have been maybe more folky, but to actually match her and harmonize her and do you know, sing back what she sang to them and then help complete the the ideas of the realm that didn't work and to change them into what did was you know was a process. So I was thrilled the way it ended up. I was um I was amazed that it worked, first of all, thankful that it worked. But you know, if it didn't, we could have gone back to her just solo. But uh it it did work. So I love it. I I and also that that that these singers have such beautiful high voices, also. I mean it it was we all stretched. Yeah. They had to work at it though. And I think they're proud of it. I think they're very proud of proud of it and and to sing with you. And it's it's beautiful. There's there's something uh really lovely about that idea that something that started as a kind of an idea, an intellectual construct almost ends up with something that is very far from that as you experience it as a listener. It's just you know, it's an extraordinary listen at the end of that record. Well, you know, concepts don't have uh don't have a uh a musicality or lack of musicality, it's it's how it's delivered, it's what it's it's what you make out of it. An idea intrinsically isn't good or bad, it's it's about the interpretation of it, in my opinion, because the you know, some great ideas, what appear to be great ideas, don't work when you're composing, like in my limited classical composition uh experiences. I I have a big plan for this, you know, uh concerto, and I get to the end and I go, well, that sure didn't work. And it's the moment when you change, when you step away from your concept enough to make something work, then it either works or doesn't work. You know what I mean? You have to be brave enough to like, okay, you know, or or you decide that the concept is more important, you know, that you fulfill that concept. Like there was this tune. Here's an example. The Flectones had a song called um UFO Tofu, which is a palindrome. And the song was a palindrome, some it was like about 10 palindromes. It was a palindrome in form, you know, A, B, C, middle part, middle part backwards, C B A, right? And it and it was working really great up until the last helpless sections. And I was like, this is just going on too long. And so we eventually had to cut a section to make it work so that you didn't just lose interest in it at a certain point. And it was the right decision um for the piece, even though we had to let go of the concept, you know, the the strict concept that we were trying to do. Um, so sometimes you just have to, you know, things have to work, things have to be emotionally satisfying, they have to be a length that works. You know, you you have that freedom here. And I I don't know in in the classical world, um, well, sometimes people will not take repeats or um make I don't know, Renee, you would have to address that, what kind of freedoms you have to manipulate the material to suit yourself or how you feel held to what's there. Well, we we have very little freedom to manipulate material. We we it's a it's a sort of honoring the composer. You know, they're not alive uh to say yes, most of them are not alive to say yes, no, maybe. Um if it's a contemporary composer, I can say that you know, I need it to be in a different key, you know, I need this to be rewritten. I mean, I'm I am much more demanding when I'm working with the real person in classical music. But um that's uh I couldn't, I was shocked when you said let's change that word. You know, we that's what we do. Uh you we make it our own. And I I that was that felt very naughty in a way. It was fun. Very common in the folk world, right? Right, Matt. Very common to have some, and we were talking about this the other day as well, how some of the things are mistakes. People got the words wrong and then recorded them that way, and then for another, you know, 60 years people are singing it that way. And I'm like, that's not the right, that's not what the original lyric was, but it's fine. You know, it's folk music, and at a certain point it it becomes everybody's. Yeah, and you think about Tony Rice singing Church Street Blues and just changes Norman's lyric because either he misheard it or because he was Tony and wanted to do it differently, and and now everybody sings it Tony's way. Um and there's there's something really interesting in that, the points you're both making about freedom there. There's something one thing I love on this record is the use of kind of drones. Um because a drone uh on one hand totally grounds something, it fixes it in a tonality, but at the same time, everything that is then juxtaposed on top of that, there's tension created by this enormous amount of gravity. But also a drone allows you a bit of rhythmic freedom, and often with a folk song, it is delivered in, you know, with the guitar and some rhythm and stuff. And so there's something really um there's some space created, and but but space with tension attached to it, which is a really nice mix. Yeah, and for me the drones, uh when I realized drones were going to be important for me as the producer, I was like, well, let's make sure the drones aren't all the same. And and I spent a lot of time on something no one will ever notice, you know, looking for like analog, things to blend into a bass drone, into an accordion drone, looking for things to just give each one of a a different color. They all already had a different color because they were in different keys. But uh, and drones really do change a lot from from pitch to pitch, the the way they resonate. Um but um yeah, that that that's uh that gives a freedom to Renee to uh to take her time and and do what she can do so well um and uh stretch and I I just love drones because they add a meditative feel to anything that you do. Right. And it it it's and it is a it has a grounding influence, I think, also on our on our bodies. I mean we feel that. I mean that's much more in tune now with um vibration and uh what pitches do to us. I mean, I mean now we know people are setting the 40 hertz, which is uh you know 40 40 vibrations per second to to cure certain diseases. I mean it's it's we're more sensitive than we realize. Uh spending time with Sakir, which we both have, and Indian music, you know, the drone is so fundamental to that. Um He wrote the most gor uh gorgeous chapter in my book, Music and Mind, which is uh a whole look at mostly music and health, but his chapter was really metaphysic and was metaph it was mystical, actually, what happened to him when he just went into a uh a room for days without eating or sleeping and played. Um and it it it's just it's he's an amazing person. Um I mean and he belongs to a a a really ancient history of music. Well that's one of the the the sort of fascinating things about just delving into this world of bluegrass and string bone music, because bluegrass is a thing, it's not actually that old. It's a relatively recent construct, but its roots are incredibly old. Um and there's something about those I think there's something that you'd mentioned, um, Renee, about talking to people about what the actual version of a folk song was and being told, well, it depends which hill you grew up on. And just the idea that things are fixed and not fixed, and whichever and but it's a bit like going back to changing the words of a folk song because you misheard it, but the idea that some people are, you know, well that's not how it goes. And it's well, there's a hundred and fifty year history of it going like that over here, you know. Right. No, I it that made me laugh. I said, Are you kidding me? Because I that that's unheard of in in what we do. And uh when he said, you know, depends on the hill, uh you know, it really let us know that people personalized all the music that came over, and most of it came from the UK. A lot of the folk songs that that are the older folk songs, more traditional. Uh and and um, you know, even the cuckoo, when you think about this juxtaposition of loss and love, but it's also loss and gambling. So you're losing love or losing money. Uh and I think we we stuck with the the love aspect of it because we wanted to kind of emphasize a certain emotional weight. But yeah, there's no question that um this the history plays a big part into it. But I love that you can make it your own. Another piece of the folk quality of it or the the the uh changeability of it is that these songs were used by bards to to deliver the news as they traveled around, and so they would sing a melody that everyone knew, but they would uh tell the you know what was going on, you know, in the big city or or around the world. Uh and that was that was uh another piece of this story, you know, of folk music is how how the music was used. Because you know, didn't have newspaper, you know, it was so many we didn't have communication like we had now. So um the songs were constantly being changed to to um fit the news of the day. True goods. Well and it's really interesting something like this because the I hate sort of hate to call it text really because it's not text, but it the the the kind of the the words of a folk song are incredibly important when you're to you're telling somebody a story. And I would it just made me I would sort of listen to the record and go through some of the notes that came with it and flicking back through your book, The Inner Voice for an A, and there's a a passage where you talk about opera singers singing in their high voice and how difficult it is to actually convey the text. I think you compared it to trying to have an intelligible conversation while yawning. Yeah, really good metaphor actually, or or physical kind of image. Everybody who tries it says, Oh, I see the problem. Yeah. Um I'm fascinated with this because it is such a complete kind of journey of a record in a way that I love. Um I read that there are plans to do some live shows with this. And I think will they kind of take the format of sort of delivering that almost as a song cycle as it exists on record? I mean, yes, uh we're we're doing that, and then Bela and and his group will play a lot of instrumental numbers as well. Uh, but we're we're trying, we're gonna try, I think, to to reproduce the album. And um it's also uh we've been lucky that Baylor's been able to enlist the help of a lot of the singers who are on the disc. Uh I mean, and speaking of high voice, Dolly Parton is a wonder. I mean, maintained her voice in a way that we would all envy. It it's still beautiful, it's expressive, and uh, and all the young singers as well. They have extraordinary ranges. And Vin Skill is famous for that. He's always been known as a pristine tenor, just a great, great singer, uh, as well as musician. So uh it's really been fun to kind of collaborate with these singers. And um uh Eva I already knew Eva O'Donovan had performed a number of times at the Kennedy Center, so she we became friendly to and uh and her husband is a conductor, a classical conductor. So uh I'm delighted that she's on it as well. But just so many great performers on this record. And I owe that to Baila. Only Baila reaching out could have gotten them to all to say yes. Well, I think they would have said yes for you. But uh the first thing we get to do next week, we're gonna actually put this together and sort of figure out how this all works. I'm rehearsing up a basically a new band um to do this music that uh is is great. You know, a lot of people uh three people I've been playing with for a long, long time and three new ones. And and so we've got to learn my music uh so we can deliver it, you know, the way it takes a lot of work. But also we've already practiced uh Renee's music, you know, run through everything. But uh but and then we were gonna figure out a session that makes sense. Um where we we'll we'll do some you know fairly intense um uh my music and then create then comes the drone and then we bring it down and we go and we we paint a picture. Um I think it's gonna be good for both of us because um I don't know, it may be like a whole night of my crazy music is is a lot, and uh and so it'll it'll break, but it it'll be there's gonna be a lot of contrast. It's gonna be a very uh dynamic show with a lot of different kinds of things happening in it. And so we're just gonna figure out next week. Uh we're gonna do the the Opry together, which is just a few songs. But that'll be a fun way to launch this thing. Yeah, a new debut for me. I love it. Uh and uh I'm gonna be really nervous too because I don't want to disappoint the audience. From there, and but also the Tell Your Ride Bluegrass Festival. I mean that's an institution in itself. And then we end. I love it, I'd rather love that we end at Carnegie Carnegie Hall in New York. Yeah. Yeah, so we I think we have six or seven like full concert shows in high profile places, and uh and we're gonna put together a a set that uh that we both that we both are into, I'm sure. Well, good luck with that. Um I hope it kind of fulfills all the things you would want it to for a live performance. It's it's such a wonderful record. I've been kind of getting a little bit lost in it recently. It's such a you know, it's such a kind of involved listen. Um and yeah, I hope the rest of the world loves it as much as I do. And thanks both to you taking the time to talk to me about it. I've really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you, Matt. It's a pleasure to be you. Thanks a lot, too. Thanks for spreading the word about the project.