The Tim O'Brien Songbook

My guest this week is Tim O'Brien and he joins me to chat about 'The Tim O'Brien Songbook', a handpicked selection of 40 of his songs, complete with notation, chords, Nashville number charts and thoughts from Tim on singing and songwriting.

We talk about Tim's journey from being an instrumentalist, to a singer, then a songwriter, and some of the key points along the way, as well as how he set about choosing the songs for the book. He shares his thoughts on co-writing and why songs don't always need an introduction, plus some insights into his process and what he's learned over several decades as one of the best loved singers and songwriters in the acoustic world.

You can buy the songbook (along with many of Tim's recordings) via Tim's website, where you'll also find tour dates and links to his social channels.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

You know, as my physical abilities diminish as I get older, the singing still it actually it emerges even f uh further to the front. It it pushes the singing and the songwriting especially to the front. In other words, if I can write a song and just record it so that people can hear it and experience it, I don't really have to perform it as much. Uh I'm not gonna be around forever, but if I can get some good songs and uh put them out there, that's the best use of my time.

Matt 0:38

I'm using the bluegrass jam along the podcast for anyone and everyone who loves bluegrass. Hey there everybody, welcome back to Bluegrass Jamalong. Or if you are new here, which it seems like quite a few people are, because you've had a big spike in downloads over the past few days, then welcome, good to have you here. Um my guest on the podcast this week is Tim O'Brien, uh, and this is a really interesting conversation. Um, I am a big Tim O'Brien fan, as I know a lot of you are, one of my favourite mandolin players, one of my favourite singers, but also one of my favourite songwriters, and that's what we're going to talk about today. Um, Tim has a new songbook out called unsurprisingly, Tim O'Brien's songbook, and it's full of like classic songs of Tim. Some old stuff, some new stuff, um, some stuff in the middle. 40 songs handpicked by Tim with the melodies written out, with chords written out, Nashville number charts, and some stuff from Tim about writing and singing, some sort of thoughts on the process and all that kind of. It's a really fascinating thing, and a really just fun opportunity for me to chat to Tim about his kind of career as a songwriter, um, kind of how he got into writing, how he realized that songwriting was kind of one of the main things he was going to focus on, some of his favourite songs, um, you know, just this whole journey he's been on. Really, really interesting conversation. Um, you're gonna hear about some of the Hot Rise songs, you're gonna hear about some of the songs he's written that were big covers for other people, some of his favourite songs, um, and definitely some of my favourite songs. So it's a real treat for me to get to chat to Tim. Um, do check out the links in the show notes. I'll sort of point you in the direction of where you can go and buy this book because it's a physical thing you can get your hands on. Um, and also just general links to where you can go and find Tim's stuff. Um, but that is it. I will let you enjoy this interview because I certainly enjoyed this one. It was a real treat for me to get to do this, as I said. Um yeah, here's Tim O'Brien talking about the Tim O'Brien songbook. Um Tim O'Brien, welcome back to Bluegrass Jamalong. It's a pleasure to see you as always.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Likewise, great to see you too across the great interweb.

Matt 2:52

And we're talking about the Tim O'Brien songbook. So I'm really interested to dig into this. Um and I think the obvious question is so you know, what generated the idea for putting everything together into a songbook in the first place?

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Well, this has been uh a suggested project for a long time. And uh I kept writing songs and I kept thinking, well, maybe someday I'll do this, and and uh It never really got started until a few years ago when Randy Barrett, who was the spearhead behind the Ben Eldridge banjo book, uh came to me and said, Do you want to do a song book? And I said, Yeah, with you I think it'd be a good project, probably a good time. And um so over the past two years I've been assembling it, sort of figuring out which songs and learning. I learned how to uh uh uh write the songs on Sibelius, so there's um the songs are transcribed on the on the staff for people that like that. And um it was uh you know, it took a while. It was it was I think it's a it's been an interesting project uh process and uh I hope it's worthwhile.

Matt 4:04

Well, it's an interesting, it must be interesting to be asked to look back through your own catalogue in that way. Because it's not probably not often you get asked to do something like that.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Yeah, it's a funny thing. I you know, I kind of do it from time to time, like when I'm thinking about um, you know, rehearsing a band, and I'll say, well, let's let's reach back and try some older songs and that kind of thing. Or if I was playing uh reunion shows with Hot Rise, I'd certainly do a lot of Hot Rise material. And that would sort of satisfy that urge. But uh it was really interesting to look back and say, well, which ones are get included? Because you I couldn't really include them all, and it was kind of uh it's a big, you know, there's 40 songs. It was kind of um 30 seemed like too few. And it's 40 seems on the verge of too many. So uh, but you know, there's an awful lot I left out that I that I kind of really like, and so it was an interesting uh project, uh interesting criteria or try a way of trying to figure out which went which songs went in the book and which were left out. It's kind of the ones that got recorded by others I chose those for sure. And uh the you know, the ones that Kathy Mateo recorded and and released in the country music marketplace were kind of formative and sort of uh they were the the fact that she recorded them and I started making money off those uh was a new thing for me and it it kind of made me sit up and uh pay more attention to writing. So uh Garth Brooks, Nickel Creek, Newgrass Revival, those were uh seldom seen. Those were you know, I don't have that many covers, but I've had some significant ones and uh I paid you know tribute to those uh influences and helped you know the they were definitely things that pushed me into s writing more. And um and then it's just kind of what I liked about the songs and which ones I feel like maybe translate the most. I may I put the songs in sequence in the book, kind of starting with stuff that was recorded by Hot Rise early on. Um and then stuff that I wrote in the coming years, and there's a few from the most recent project that I recorded with Jan. Um so it's kind of uh it's already obsolete. There's a lot of new songs, and uh a lot of them I feel like could have been in there, but people have never heard them. It's an interesting thing to think about uh wha how how the book would be used because uh I think there's a lot of people that want the songs, they want the lyrics down in a book so they can just kind of look, read them and uh kind of play them. And um a lot of people would maybe just want the chord names above the above the words of the lyrics and just kind of play along to the recordings and that kind of thing. Um but I tried to make it so that they could be transposed by putting numbers above the words, number f numbered chords, uh usually national number system for uh the lyric sheets. And uh, but then if you really want to know how the melody goes, you can read them on the page on the staff.

Matt 7:36

Well, it's a really interesting one because there's such an important thing to sing a song in the key that suits your voice, but you don't often see songbooks with the national number system, but it would make absolute sense to do that.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Well, uh Pete Warnick was really uh helpful with you know trying to to troubleshoot this project because he'd done a bluegrass songbook and he he did the thing with tab. He did a tablature for banjo and guitar, like using the the fourth, third, and second strings, which were common uh common tuning, and put the melody in tab. But then uh I think he also put numbers, I'm not sure if he put numbers on there, but he said, you know, oh, he's done another songbook since then for uh uh a a bluegrass project in um North Carolina's uh mu Youth Musicians Project. I can't remember the name of it. But he put a new book together with them and used the number system and thought that that was really important. You know, and it's uh I hope it's I hope it's helpful. I hope that people understand that. Um you know, it's something to learn if you don't know it, then it's a good it's a good uh bit of knowledge to have.

Matt 8:53

Yeah, and well it's interesting because you sort of touch on some of this. There's also alongside the the kind of songs themselves, there's some thoughts from you on both songwriting and and singing, and that, you know, the point about finding the right key is one of the things that you make very clearly in the book.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Yeah, um sometimes uh there's some instances where I maybe recorded the song in a wrong key. Uh, and uh so I, you know, I corrected that over the years. Uh like uh Brother Wind, I recorded it in G, and then I found found that it felt better in a lower key and ended up recording it again in F. But uh in each case, there was a recorded version that is that I took the transcription from. Um so people can use that as the guide. What's funny about the transcription process is that uh I realized that my my singing's not that disciplined. I I never in often often cases uh I didn't sing the same song song once the same way. I didn't even keep the melody that I had in my head um clear. It kind of there's a lot of variation, it's like a jazz singer or something. I guess I have influenced by that kind of singing, improvising as I sing with the melody and the rhythm of it too. Um and it and at times I transcribe something closer to what I imagined the melody to be as opposed to what I actually sang on the recording. Um because uh sometimes the the recordings didn't really match up to what I what I imagined the melody was to be. When I went when I got to where I actually transcribed it, I said, why did I sing it that way? So it's a funny, it's a funny thing. I didn't, you know, presumably how undisciplined I am, kind of.

Matt 10:46

But presumably you've also these songs like have lived and changed a bit with you over the years, you know, things songs are are very rarely fixed as a definite thing.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Yeah, they definitely are a living, breathing thing. And uh when somebody like Kathy Mateo or Garth Brooks things your song, they change it a little bit to fit themselves. And that's I think uh totally uh legitimate. I feel like it's uh it's part of the thing. And the songs, if they live on at all, I feel like it's a great flattering thing for me. Um But yeah, they don't really it's funny, like you write the songs, and a lot a lot of songwriters will say this. You once you once you write them, and particularly after you record them and put them out there, it's kinda they're on their own. You can you can try to worry about them. They're kind of like your kids that left the house finally, and you know, you you gotta let them be what they'll be. And uh if they succeed, it's great. And you hope you hope the best for 'em. And you hope that they, you know, they live on and people uh uh enjoy them and like them.

Matt 12:00

Well yeah, I mean it's really funny just sort of talking about songs in that way, because one of the songs that's in this book and that is one of the songs that is well known by people from another version is When You Come Back Down. And I saw you sing that song in London uh several years ago, and you introduced it by saying it was written about one of your kids at the point they were about to leave home and go to college. Um, and yet the version people know is the Nickel Creek version, probably sung by somebody about the same age as your kid that was about to leave for go. So different people singing those songs are can only sing them. You were singing it as a father, like Chris Theley was probably singing it as from a different frame of mind, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Yeah, I think uh what's interesting is they the interpretation is up to the singer and also to the listener. I you know singer has to I I imagine it's best if the singer believes in the lyric and can understand and put their their own experience into the into the sorry that my dog. That's my dog Nellie Kane, by the way.

Matt 13:06

Excellent.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

But the singer would, you know, presumably put them their own self into the lyric and feel like it was something that they identified with. You know, we all kind of act a little bit on stage, I think. Uh we put our best best selves forward, you know. A lot of performers are shy people who kind of organize things so that they look the best when they get out in front of people. But uh you you definitely want to be able to identify with it. But how you identify with it is up to you, I think, and uh up to the performer. And the same with the audience, you know, you just don't know. Uh I remember Joni Mitchell uh read an article, an interview with her where she said that she wrote Both Sides Now is kind of about giving her her child up for adoption. And uh she wrote, she said I wrote like 30 verses or something. I had all these verses and I basically trimmed it down, trimmed it down, trimmed it down until none of that was specific in the lyric. And um she said then uh when the record came out and people started hearing it, I got all these uh I got all these notices from people and talked to people who had heard the song and thought, man, you know, I gave up my child for adoption and I and uh really identified with this song. And she tried not to make that audible or readable in the song. And yet it came through anyway. So it's up to the the listener and the uh performer to interpret it how they like, but some things just are kind of mysteriously there, kind of embedded in the mood of a thing.

Matt 14:54

Yeah, yeah. And well, it's one of the glorious things about about art is that you you do sort of complete it yourself in some form by experiencing it. Like as a listener, whatever, as somebody watches a piece of theatre, watches a film, listens to a song, you do get to choose what it means to you, and you're not wrong. It might be nothing to do with what the person who wrote it intended it to be. But you you know, you take on things take on some meaning when you experience them, don't they?

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Yeah, it's a it's a wonderful uh thing about it. And uh, you know, the idea that people are interested in this is amazing. Yes, people people love stories and they kind of need stories, and it's kind of like myth uh is a way for people to sort of understand, like uh Joseph Campbell, I think, said that myth is useful uh when something happens um something major event in your life, you kind of you have a question about it, and myth will say, Well, here's how it kind of how it plan how it plays out in myth. And you can sort of put yourself on that template and see if it agrees with it. The stories are kind of like that, they're kind of and songs are story uh pretty much often stories and people really seem to uh really hunger for stories. It's uh you know, music is music is is mysterious on its own without any lyrics, and it's it sort of tells a story somehow on its own, and it's uh like you say, it's up for for the the listener's interpretation. But when you add the lyrics, it it has another power to it, and uh there's something about that combination that's kind of liberating and kind of uh it becomes more than either one. Uh you know, they they kind of lean on each other and they kind of meld together, and it's funny how a a lyric will suggest music and music will suggest a lyric sometimes. It's another phenomenon that's kind of amazing to me.

Matt 17:13

Well, it's funny you're talking about about stories and stories that come out of song, and I just talking again about when you come back down. I the experience of hearing you sing that song, a little club called The Green Note in Camden years ago, and telling that story about it being about one of your kids. And then several years later, saw Sierra Hole play in London, and she sang a song called Sealing to the Ground, which is about her dad lifting her up really high as a kid and going, Look, it's not that scary, I've got you, I've got you. And then her, like as a young adult later on in life, kind of looking back on that moment and going, Oh, my dad had me and everything's alright because my dad has still got me. And it felt like a beautiful bookend of two views of the same story, one of the dad going, I've got you, and one of the kid going, I know. Like, and they're two totally separate songs, unconnected, not written in response to each other. But there's that lovely one song almost finishes the other, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Well, you know, what's interesting too is uh the songs, the issues of of a human life are there's only so many s uh situations that you cover as a as a writer, I think as a novelist or as a poet or whatever. But everybody's got their own little angle on it that's slightly different. And uh you know, you worry about you know, writing you know, repeating somebody else's idea. I don't think you really can. You sort of are gonna put your own spin on it. And uh it you know, as a songwriter, I kinda had to learn to trust myself that what I'm putting down and what what feels right probably is right. And uh it's a kind of a long process of getting comfortable with that and feeling sure. And uh, you know, realizing when a song is a song and when it's just kind of an exercise that you can leave off to the side and you know keep working on something else.

Matt 19:16

Well, I think that's one of the reasons I love a song in the same way that I love a short story, is it doesn't have the time like a novel or a movie to sort of lay out a thesis or tell you something. All it does is it has a few minutes to turn your head and go look at this thing over here, and then for you to turn your head back to your normal life, having seen something through somebody else's eyes just for a few minutes, and that's all the power of it for me.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

Yeah, yeah. No, that's great, and you know, uh that's what's great. The song is is very short, and uh uh if it doesn't grab you, it won't take long, and you can try another one. And uh, you know, but then when you start assembling a you know a group of 40 songs, you kind of know I I you know I I'm still asking myself, what does this mean? Um am I is this something for for my fans and for fans of music and for people who want to learn learn about the kind of music I play? Or is it really for me? The answer is kind of both. And uh just like every recording I've ever made, I realized after a while that I did them for my own satisfaction as much as for anything else. And you know, I learned I I I recorded songs so that I would have something that I could sing, and you know, it gave me the impetus to learn the song and learn to sing it well and to arrange it up to my best of my uh abilities. And uh same thing with a song, you kind of shape it the best you can. But you know, then getting uh this whole group of songs together is kind of like it's another exercise in that like saying, Well, uh I can look at this and say, Okay, I've I've done a lot of stuff here and I'm proud of a lot of it, and I you know, I can stand by this. And if you know, something uh like you you practice a song so that you can sing it on stage, you record it the best way you can so that you can present it on a recording as well as on stage, you kind of try to replicate that. And the same thing with this repertoire becomes my best effort at defining what my music is and who I am really through the music.

Matt 21:38

Did in the process of kind of going back over a couple of years and picking these songs, did any did you sort of spot any themes or ideas like in that as a collected body of work that it's sort of you hadn't realized before? Because I I think all writers have some sort of central kind of bucket of themes they return to.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Well, I think uh there's a lot of it is sort of we're we're all in this together kind of a thing. Um, you know, songs like uh you know, um Another Day or um Restless Spirit. I'm just looking at the titles here.

Matt 22:17

I mean Cup of Sugar falls into that very clearly.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Yeah. You know, I mean one girl cried is like a guy singing, and he's he's lonesome, and the listener's lonesome, and they don't know their each lonesome, and somehow they maybe meet and something happens and it works out. But it's like life is random, but we can sort of hope that things will work out. Hold to a dream is like that. Uh I don't know. There's a lot of that, and um you know, love's the love uh as a concept kind of drives a lot of it. There's not a like a lot of love songs like uh like you'd hear on a country station, but uh I think a lot of love runs through these. Uh Crooked Road, you know, like that song is kind of like defining who I am as a musician and what what musicians do, and you know, uh what you know, it's like I just write, you know, trying to mirror what my life is like. But you know, theme-wise, uh they're all fairly personal. Um you mentioned the thing about when you come back down, Chris Seely probably thought of it one way and I think of it another way. There's one song called Letter in the Mail, and that one's uh um I wrote it with John Hadley. He was thinking about his kids who are grown up and moved far away. And uh I was thinking about my dad. I was thinking, you know, I was thinking about the older generation, he's thinking about the younger younger generation. Uh and it kind of works both ways. It's just about um people missing one another and being far apart but somehow connecting. I don't know.

Matt 24:16

Well, and it's interesting you were talking earlier about um kind of knowing when a song's a song and when it's just a thing that you're working on, and and I'm really interested to talk about a little bit about the process. And I guess first of all, is was there a point for you that it kind of became clear to you that maybe songwriting was was the key thing more than being an instrumentalist, or did you kind of have a a point when you sort of thought, oh, think I think what I am is a songwriter?

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Well, I evolved from being an instrumentalist to being, you know, uh I used to be an instrumentalist when I started out who contributed vocals now and then, background vocals, uh harmony vocals, and then the occasional lead on a in a band, singing lead on a song. And then I became the singer in Hot Rise, and um uh I learned more about the power of uh singing and and you know what the singer's role is. It's the focus of so much of the music, you know, the the vocal, the song being about something really kind of ties everything together. Bluegrass has a lot to do with picking, and you know, everybody gets a chance to kind of play some some uh stuff that express themselves that way. But the song, the singer becomes, you know, your role is really, really hyper-important. And uh if you don't have good singing in a band, you don't have a you don't have the appeal that you would if you did have it. So uh I learned about what songs what what why I liked certain songs as I went as and became a lead singer, and that helped me to write songs. And writing songs was going to be another way to keep um the profile up and sort of make the group valuable to the audience. Um a lot of this, you know, everything I've ever done with music, uh any kind of uh thing other than playing the guitar or the mandolin or fiddle or whatever, it's all directed at uh enabling myself to keep playing. I just feel comfortable doing it. I feel comfortable singing, I feel comfortable playing. I feel uh I'm less shy. I feel, you know, I feel like I can I can be myself a little more in front of people. And uh writing songs became um another way, another, a deeper way to express myself. So, you know, I realized that singing was was more important than the playing after a while. And then I as I went, I realized that writing was was one thing that was my own that wasn't anybody else's. And it felt like it was really important to continue that. People seemed to like it, so I felt like this is more my role than anything else. And as you know, as my physical abilities diminish as I get older, um it the singing still it actually emerges even uh further to the front. It kind of pushes the singing and the songwriting, especially to the front. In other words, if I can write a song and just record it so that people can hear it and experience it, I don't really have to perform it as much. Uh I'm not gonna be around forever. But if I can get some good songs and uh put them out there, that's the best use of my time.

Matt 27:56

And I get this the definite sense that um just through what you write in the book about songwriting, that the protest and just kind of that analogy that people always use about fishing and songwriting, about you like turning up every day and sitting by the river and you know it protest has become a big part of what you do as a songwriter. Did that evolve over the years? Was it did it used to be a case of just sort of sit down and play and see what came out? Because it certainly seems like it's something that is woven through your life now.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Well, it used to be um I used to worry that I wasn't ever going to write another song again. And uh, you know, and I I would worry that I, you know, if I had a good one, I would worry that I couldn't come up with one that was as good as the last one. And um and then after enough times of good things coming up and things happening sort of naturally, I stopped worrying about it as much and kind of letting it happen. And uh it's really interesting because it doesn't it's still you know, John Prime would say, the last thing I really want to do is is write a song. I can I'll do anything to avoid it. I'll do anything, you know. Uh but when one comes, it's really a great thing. And uh so you know, I feel like the process is just being comfortable with it. Uh that that has been really the key in the last 20 years is just let it happen, you know, let you know, open yourself up to the possibilities and make the time for it. And then something will happen. And I used to like I would go for a year or so and I go, geez, I haven't written anything, you know. I really need to get down to write some songs. And uh, and then I would kind of go, well, I wonder what I'd what I have written. And I go looking back and go, geez, I got this, that, and the other thing. And I said, here's a thing that could be finished that was actually pretty good. And I realized that, you know, I was doing it all along. And uh and uh it kind of taught me not to worry about it so much. But you know, I try to in the book a little bit, I try to uh talk about keeping organized. And you know, if you're a writer, you want to measure your progress and keep stuff in the same place so that you can find it, you know. I still struggle with that, keeping things organized. But uh you know, it's uh I've got file cabinets and I've got um I've got hard drives and I've got this stuff there. If I really need to comb through it, I can find it.

Matt 30:53

Sometimes, you know, I've done not songwriting, but quite a bit of writing over time. And sometimes just the act of writing something in a notebook or playing it or reading it into the voice memos in your phone or whatever, just sometimes the act of making a note of something makes it stick in your brain and makes it real in a way that other things don't necessarily.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

Yeah. Well, uh Tom Paxton says that in uh I think I quoted him. He says that the uh very act of putting the pen the pencil to the paper sort of wakes up the engine room in the brain and says, Okay, we're supposed to give you the signals that you're looking for here. And uh it does sort of sort of set things in motion. Um and so that's why, you know, the voice memo on a phone on the smartphone is really a wonderful new tool. Used to always have little notebooks in my shirt pocket um and a you know a pen close by that I could you know jot ideas down and I kind of save them in a certain place and I go sift through them later. But yeah, it's uh it's it's attention and intention combined that sort of sets the thing in motion.

Matt 32:18

And Tom is somebody that you've been doing quite a bit of co-writing with recently. Um and co-writing's a really interesting thing because particularly in the country world, sort of the bluegrass world, like co-writing is a thing. People arrange to sit down and write a song, and you know, it's it's on the one hand such a structured thing, and on the other hand, just a meeting of two different kinds of creativity. Um and if is you have you always enjoyed co-writing?

SPEAKER_02 32:49

Uh I it makes me nervous at times. Was it people that I haven't written with? And uh, you know, um I was uh when I started uh pursuing a solo record deal in Nashville, I was encouraged to co-write and to come to Nashville and co-write with certain people. Um the record label that I signed with sort of suggested various people. And uh, you know it was um I there were times when nothing happened and it would be really embarrassing. Um and there's other times when really good things happened, and so you I kind of learned to cultivate those relationships. And uh sort of if somebody's songs, if somebody if I heard somebody's songs and I liked them, and I thought, wow, that's really a great expression and something that I wish I could tap into, then I would pursue those relationships when I could. And uh so over the years you kind of learn what will, you know, what works and what won't. You know, people will ask if if I want to co-write, and I'll usually say, yeah, I'm up to I'm I'm open to any possibilities. There's certain pla places that I keep going back to, people I keep going back to. And uh certain things I just don't because I'm not really in, I don't find the common bond from what I know of the other person's music. And it it's uh it's nothing against them, it's just it's does feel like it's gonna work. Um so co-writing is a funny thing. You have to trust one another and you have to give each other your uh each other your respect and uh and not limit things. Um it's also good to be able to say, no, I don't want us to say that. I don't want it, I don't want it to go there. Um and to to be able to uh say that to your partner and say, yeah, well let's don't go there, let's go here, because there's up plenty other eyes uh directions we can go. And uh to keep that keep it going and keep it flowing. You know, uh Jason Carter came over, um he was a bit you know, wants to write songs for his new record, and he's got, I think he's got it all pretty much written, and he's recorded a lot of it now. He came over one day and he'd been writing, he'd written a song about gambling, and he thought, well, maybe I could write another song about gambling. So he and I got together, we talked about stuff, and we ended up with a song that we both really like. And uh we got together again. We I had just gotten a uh well that song's called Leadville. He's recorded it. And um and then a month or so later he came around and um we I didn't know what we were gonna write about, but right before he showed up, uh Jan had ordered something from Amazon, and it came in a giant box. It was like almost it was like the size of a refrigerator. And I thought, my God, what have you ordered? And it was something, whatever it was, was something small uh a bit smaller box was inside it, and a smaller box inside that box. But I just had the the lyric I said, well, I sold my shack, I'm moving to I'm leaving today, I'm moving into an Amazon box. And I and so we wrote a song that day called Amazon Box. That's really silly, but I really like it. And um and then we got together with Pat McLaughlin and wrote again, and I'm not sure anything really happened. We we wrote we wrote a song, and it's sitting there, but I don't know if it's gonna get recorded. It doesn't, it's not as direct as the other two. So you just have to, but I don't want to I don't want to give up on that. Um what you know what writing with Jason was good. You know, uh he knows he knows good songs and uh he's a good musician and and uh he kind of you know you're kind of helping people. It's like being a uh record producer too. It's a little bit some of the songwriting, sometimes co-writing. Like in Nashville, the a lot of the uh experienced songwriters will work with a new artist, and they might contribute two or three lines and then they become the co-writer and then it becomes their song. And if that song's successful, then they get back together with you and you write it, and you're all both happy about that to do it again and try to make that happen again. And uh, but a lot of times you get with somebody that's that's brand new, they have something, you know, they might not be as experienced, uh, you know, has have as much of a track record, but a lot of times they'll have something new. And that'll really, you know, kind of excite the uh guy like me as a little more experienced. I used to be the one that didn't know what he was doing. I still don't really know what I'm doing, but I I can act like I know and I can I can be relaxed about it.

Matt 38:15

Maybe that's maybe that's part of it with anything you do in life, is that you reach a point like you were saying before with the right writing, you become comfortable with the fact that maybe something's not gonna happen. And that probably is something gets out of the way and allows things to happen when you do that.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

Yeah. I mean that's actually that happens on stage as a performer and it happens as a writer. If you don't um you don't expect anything. And any any positive thing is is a dividend, and you just kind of treat it as such, and uh keep looking for the path that's you know seems like the next best step. And uh you get somewhere. It's it's amazing.

Matt 38:57

It was interesting you were talking about writing with Jason there and sort of didn't know what you were going to write about. One thing I was sort of struck by just reading through the notes with the songs in the book, is just kind of the the range of inspiration for things, you know, like the idea of Nellie Kane having some roots in a movie and Brother Wynne being inspired by elements of a novel and a song like The Anchor, you know, of our newsreader, and this, you know, the the range of different inputs that result in these outputs is is fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Yeah. You know, uh hanging around with Mike Mark Knoffler was really instructive. You know, I knew some of his hit songs to sing along, and and then I got the opportunity to perform in his band as a substitute for uh John McCusker. And uh I got to, you know, learning these songs and and and tapping into the lyrics, and I realized he can write about anything. He write, he writes about, you know, about the guy who started McDonald's or about shipbuilders. He wrote a song about guys that that salvage old ships when they run them into the beach and just kind of let them go. It's like uh anything is subject and um it's all fair game. And uh, you know, if you can make a sound and uh, you know, some words that interest you, then you're you're starting and uh you can continue. And it's um I don't know, it's like uh I'm fascinated by it. The mystery of it is it continues and uh it's always a challenge and yet it's always comforting to come up with something. You know, I wrote a song with uh Jan and I wrote a song with Tom Paxton called Sippin on a Straw. And I just wrote the lit I just wrote those words down. So sipping on a straw, to me it it conjured up somebody slowly having a drink, you know, probably at a bar, so it became a song about what you see in a bar while you're sipping on a straw. And I really like the song, and uh but all I needed to do was just write down that those four words and then get together with two other people and just talk it through and play the guitar and kind of it just sort of starts coming together.

Matt 41:34

And one of the songs um it's really interesting, actually Can You See Me Sister, which has a kind of historic kind of origin in terms of it's based on on on the ex the you know your imaginings of an encounter between two real people. And on the record, it's on I think it's on He Walked On, isn't it? And it's um you you have a spoken intro to the song that kind of explains the context to it and what the setup of it is, right? Which sort of feels so in tech so integral to it that I have a friend who does that song and he does the spoken intro as part of the song. Um and yet you don't uh you don't recount that bit in the book, which is fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Well, there was a space concern. Um it I think it's on the lyric page, maybe. Uh I don't recall. But it's not in the um the the transcription with the music. It's spoken word, and there's a little bit of music under it. It goes the spoken word part is in 3-4 and the song is in 2-4, I guess. Um so rather than take that space up, uh I just put the lyrics down and told people to listen to the source recording. But you know, it's funny, uh that also the the introduction to songs I I'm undecided on whether the introduction is to a song is always necessary. And that one it seems necessary. It seems, like you say, integral to the song because of its historical content. And yet uh I wonder what it would be like. I've never really sung the song without the introduction. I wonder what it'll be what it would be like, you know, and uh I think it would be interesting to and I I've yet to try that to just sing the song and see what people think. Um you know I think you know, I know a lot of people, like uh I was I I was at Tellya Ride a couple years ago with Tyler Childers was on stage, and um I have a friend from West Virginia that lives out there, and uh we were listening to him, and he said, Oh, this is about the The Dali Sads, this song he's singing is about the Dali Sads wilderness area, which is a place I'd been to in West Virginia. And uh but listening to the song, I didn't get that at all. And I thought, wow, uh that's great to know that. But obviously the song doesn't need you don't need to know that. It works on its own. So, you know, it's um the introductions to songs and the the little blurbs about how I wrote the song. Uh that's a thing that songwriters do. They on their show, they're kind of storytellers, so you're kind of talking a little about but a little bit about where it comes from and how you stumbled on the song. On the other hand, um it doesn't probably really need all that. Bob Dylan doesn't talk on stage, and people like it like it, they love his songs and they revere them. He's one of the greats, of course. Uh not not all of us can get away with that.

Matt 45:04

Well, it's interesting because you sort of talking in the book about um part of your education in learning as a songwriter was to sing other people's songs to see what to kind of get under the skin of them and and find out what you like and what you don't. Obviously, you know, Bob is somebody you've done a whole record of his songs. So you must you know there must be must be plenty in there for you to have learned over the years.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

Yeah, I mean, so people people like uh uh Randy Nguyen, Bob Dylan, um, you know, uh Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell, John Pryne, they're like you always want to hear what they have to offer. They're just you know we all look up to them. And uh you don't you know it's funny hanging around with somebody like that. If you see, you know, I would see John Pryne on the supermarket and I see him at a gig or a festival or something, but you know, at a party around Nashville, and uh he's one of those guys that you look up to so much that you're kind of intimidated by them. And you I get you know get to record with them and everything, but um it's uh they're part of the they're sort of part of the uh woodwork, you know, the things you stand on. Um we all kind of learn from those greats. And um so anytime they come up with something, I I pay attention, you know. Dylan's you know, what's his next record gonna be? Who knows? He's really gone into a new phase. Um Paul Simon, you know, he and Dylan do these kind of epic poet things now. It's amazing. Um they don't have any limits on it, and they're just kind of in full flower in in their later age, and I it's you know, all those guys are are things that uh they do things that I aspire to. But you know, I aspire to what they do, and maybe I forget that they don't do what I do. I don't do what they I'm never gonna do what they do, but uh maybe I can do what I do better. I saw Rodney Crowell and Sean Cow, uh sorry, Sean uh camp at a concert for the local public radio station. Um and uh, you know, we we stood for the whole show, the place was packed. And uh I left that concert hall thinking, man, I really want to get up on my game. These guys are really on it. They kind of inspire you to go on and try to do better.

Matt 47:53

There's a lovely phrase in the book. Um, you talk about, you say, It's as if I've been building a platform over the years that now feels strong enough to stand on. Which is a lovely way of looking at that sort of progression.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Yeah, I mean I start out, you start out, you kind of go, okay, I'm gonna use a Hank Williams song and this Bill Munis song and this uh Roger Miller song and this uh Bob Dylan song, and then I'm gonna have a few songs of my own in this set that I'm gonna play for people, and I'm gonna try to shape it in a way that my song kind of doesn't pale in comparison, you know, pace it in such a way so that better songs are toward the end, that kind of thing. But uh, you know, as the years went on and I wrote more and more songs and put out more and more records, you know, it's great to sing so other people's songs, but that's become more the exception nowadays. And uh it's finally feels like there's enough there for me to just kind of rely on my own work, my own my own original songs to to put on a concert. You know, it it is uh it's a lifelong uh process and and uh project. It feels feels good. Feels good to look at all these songs and go, okay, you know, there is something I can stand on. And uh, you know, it's not the best house on the block, but it's you know, I can I'm proud of it.

Matt 49:26

Well, and it's your house and you built it.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

Yeah, right, right.

Matt 49:30

Well, I mean it's just you know, it's a wonderful collection of songs. Um and and it's really interesting just hearing your thoughts on the writing and the singing and and uh kind of looking at them together and you know, thinking of some of the ones I don't know as well, and I need to go back and listen to. And um, it's a lovely collection, and it's really been a joy getting to chat to you about it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

Well, it's you know, it's a it's been a really an interesting project because I'm um paying attention to the older stuff, and I'm kind of I'm getting ready to do a concert uh week after next, where I do 22 of 20, I think I got 24 songs I'm gonna sing. And uh trying to pick from the you know the breadth of the of the my career of may mostly 40 some years of writing songs. And uh it's really kind of um it kind of is I'm assessing myself and kind of I'm not wrapping things up, I'm kind of regrouping around the songs again. And it's kind of interesting. Uh I'm finding new things about them. And uh so it's uh I feel real lucky that I've that I've got this. And uh you know, Harry Smith was a great uh collector that came out with the um anthology of American folk music and it turned people on. He was a he was a collector of all kinds of things, apparently, and he would make these art installations at his house and uh arrange photographs in the different, you know, you know, you know, collages and things and make films. And uh making this songbook is kind of a collection. And maybe it says something that no no one of the songs say. And the maybe the sequence of them says something. It's it's a mystery I'm gonna keep de diving into in the in the coming months.

Matt 51:35

Well, it must be a funny it must be a funny process, because there must be a certain amount of unavoidable sense of like legacy and kind of um like a contribution you've made to songwriting, but at the same time it must just inspire you to write more songs.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

That's what I that's really the best thing is it it kind of it it shows me that I can keep doing this and I should keep doing this, and maybe I can get it right. That's the other thing. I I keep trying to get it right. Every song I'm trying to get it more right than the last one. And uh you know, the process of of assembling these songs and kind of making a finite collection of 40. It threatens to, you know, I threaten to take myself a little too s too seriously. So I try to get past that pretty quick. You know, it's I'm I'll be glad to get this book out and go on. And uh not dwell on it too much.

Matt 52:33

Yeah, that's one of the things I love about your music is that it is able to say some meaningful things about the world, and yet it's all held pretty lightly as well. There's always space for wit and for not holding on to things too tightly.

SPEAKER_02 52:48

Well, that's good. Thank you very much for the compliment. That's ultimate compliment, thank you. You know, uh my favorite writers are that way.

Matt 52:56

Yeah, to have a firm conviction that you are willing to hold lightly is an extraordinary thing to achieve. It's been great chatting to you again, Tim. I've really enjoyed this. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

All right, Matt, thank you very much, and uh good luck with everything.