Sore Fingers 2026 Special

In early April I got the chance to go and hang out at SoreFingers, the UK bluegrass and old time camp, for a night. I'd recently interviewed John Wirtz about Sore Fingers' 30 year history for the podcast (link below) and he invited me along to meet the staff and tutors, hang out and watch some music.

While I was there I got to interview Michael Daves and Tony Trischka (links to their episodes also below), but I also took the opportunity to wander round, mic in hand like a roving reporter, and just chat to people.

In this episode you'll hear from John Wirtz about Sore Fingers' recent venue move and how they're settling into their new home, as well as from other members of the team, including some of the people who facilitate the camp's wonderful scratch band programme.

I also talked to some of the tutors, including Tony Trischka, who's taught at Sore Fingers a couple of times before, and Michael Daves and Stephen Mougin, who were both first timers.

I couldn't miss the opportunity to chat to some students too, including Sore Fingers veterans and first timers.

For more info on Sore Fingers, check out www.sorefingers.co.uk

Here's my earlier interview with John Wirtz

Here are the interviews I did at Sore Fingers with Michael Daves and Tony Trischka

This is the Stephen Mougin episode on band coaching

You can find out more about Paul Armer via his Instagram

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:27

This is a real top-notch uh camp and uh really fantastic instructors, many of whom I see at other camps that I teach at in the States. Uh it's really well run and uh really cool facility here and a really great community. I've talked to a lot of people who have been coming here for years to this camp. And I think that's one of the things that makes camps kind of a special place to go and learn. You meet new friends and you become lifelong friends, which is a cool thing, and that's what music's all about.

Matt 0:57

My name is Matt, and you're listening to Bluegrass Jamalong, the podcast for anyone and everyone who loves bluegrass. I did an episode all about the history of Sawfingers a couple of weeks ago with John Wirtz, who runs it along with his partner Moira. But I got the chance to go down to the event over Easter and talk to some of the students, talk to some of the tutors, talk to John and hang out and experience a bit of it. And it was just fantastic. Had such a great time down there. Um they run a week every Easter and a weekend in October. Um, and Easter week in particular is a big one because they bring over a bunch of tutors from the US, um, some of whom you'll hear from in this episode. Uh the event has just moved venues from being in a place in the Cotswolds to being uh somewhere kind of nearer to London a little bit, which makes it a bit more accessible. Uh, but again, in a beautiful setting in the countryside, they take over a residential school for the week and everybody stays over, everybody jams, there are tutor concerts in the evening, um, there's all sorts going on. So I went down for 24 hours, stayed the night, wandered round with my mic in my hand, talking to people. Um, and yeah, this episode will give you a bit of a flavour of what goes on at Sawfingers, and you'll hear from John who runs Sawfingers with Mora, you'll hear from some of the people who help with the team, you'll hear from some of the tutors, you'll hear from some of the students. Um, it was great fun. So, yeah, I hope you enjoy this. We're going to kick it off with a chat I had with John Wirt about how Sawfingers has kind of managed the transition from one venue to another, but just a bit more about what the event's all about and and how all of that is um give you a flavour, um, and we'll take it from there. So, here is John. I'm sitting in the beautiful English countryside on a lovely sunny day, chatting to John Wirtz at Sawfingers. John, great to see you again.

SPEAKER_13 3:03

Yeah, hi Matt. It's good to talk. Face to face.

Matt 3:06

Yeah, we talked a couple of weeks ago kind of about the history of Sawfingers. This is the 30th year. We chatted about the move, and here you are in a new location. It looks fantastic.

SPEAKER_14 3:15

Well, it it's uh we're already in love with the place. Uh the transition went incredibly well, but I have to uh pay a tribute to the team, the the team that help us, because it's not just Moira and I, it's uh half a dozen other people who are totally committed and all know what they're doing, and they did a fantastic job, and we were ready for the students when they arrived on Sunday. Uh and by Monday everybody was doing what they normally do at sore fingers in class with their tutors, playing and learning play learning to play music. So as far as you can mission accomplished, we've got the we've got we've moved and we've succeeded in doing it without any sort of uh big hiccup.

Matt 4:05

And that's brilliant because it's you know, even just having been here for ten, fifteen minutes and and wandering around and seeing the kind of bustle of activity, there's so much that people don't see that goes into event like this, not just on the day itself, but like the lead up, it's such a huge operation, isn't it?

SPEAKER_14 4:20

It is. It's a lot of work. Um and it i w if you're wanting to run a quality event, you you really need people who are committed and actually work intelligently. Uh and the team we've got do that. So if Moore and I are not around, which in the in in this situation we were often pulled into different directions, we could rely on the guys making decisions. You know, they they'd see a problem, they wouldn't wait for us to come along and say, Oh, you need to do this. They get on, they they'll decide something. And that's the best thing you can have because even if they make the wrong decision, it's better than no decision. And we've got that luxury, you know.

Matt 4:57

And it's clearly Brennan's smooth. I arrived, you know, got a taxi from the station, arrived at the gate, and immediately bumped into someone who's here, is a woman whose fifteen-year-old son is on Becky's fiddle course, they're brand new to Bluegrass, didn't know anything about it, and she was just full of praise as to how welcome everybody's been, how easy it's been, like what a lovely experience he's having already, and that's kind of if people are feeling that, that's testament to all that work having gone in, I think.

SPEAKER_14 5:20

It is the there's a kind of we encourage this culture because there's a lot of people who come here who you are a bit new to the music and even more they're a bit new to the scene, and they want to make friends. Bluegrass and old time uh uh social music that you you sit and do groups in groups around the campfire at festivals and things like that. So the hardest thing is you go to a festival and you don't you just wonder how you get into these groups, you don't uh and it's a bit ner yeah, I remember it myself. Uh it it was you were a bit nervous about walking into a group and joining in, and it's perfectly acceptable when you know, but if you don't know, it's not. Now the advantage with this place is that first we encourage the culture of welcoming people, making them feel comfortable, and when they go and sit in the in the tea room or something, I you know, they get playing straight away. They're playing with people, talking about music, and it just it builds a community. And by Friday we'll have the 2026 Sawfingers community, and they'll be meeting at the next festivals. Dozens of them will turn up at Crossover, they go, Oh yeah, hi, I met you at cr at Saw Fingers, and that helps the whole scene. It it um you know it it just bonds people and they don't turn up at a festival knowing nobody, you know.

Matt 6:46

And it's yeah, it's that kind of world. I'm not as um kind of deeply ingrained in the UK bluegrass scene as a lot of people. Uh but even just arriving here, I've already seen two or three people that I know and familiar faces, and you do, yeah. And and the woman was saying that her son, you know, didn't really he's a bit nervous about getting in a scratch band because he's not particularly experienced, and he's just was like felt so welcomed and so comfortable that he's doing it.

SPEAKER_14 7:06

Yeah, well the scratch band, so just to explain it in briefly, is that uh people can register to join a band which performs on the Thursday, that's today. So they've had three days. They met on Monday afternoon at two o'clock, and they've gone through the whole band experience in two days. So Monday they were all, well, great, we've got a band. Tuesday they were all falling out, uh, you know, and as bands do. And then on Wednesday they're going, Oh damn, I've got to get we've got to get this together because we're on stage tomorrow. And tonight it'll be you'd be amazed at what they achieve. You know, they're it's incredible how well they play and deliver their sets. Um, and and that's it's because they're mentored, there's a team around them, you help them through every step, encourage them, reassure them. Uh, it's not all about hot technique, it's about being able to kind of have the confidence to get on stage and play, and it's another aspect of sore fingers which we're really proud of.

Matt 8:11

Yeah, and it's a wonderful thing to get to do it because this might be some people's first experience of doing that, and it's such a kind of welcoming and easy environment to do it in. And like if you can give a 15-year-old fiddle player the confidence to go out and like carry on that journey and get deeply immersed in bluegrass, then that's a a beautiful thing to be able to provide.

SPEAKER_14 8:29

Well, we one of the the youngsters that uh is here um comes from Lemmington Spa and he's been kind of on his own at home and he plays guitar and banjo. Uh and his mum phoned me and we talked about sponsorship and whatnot anyway, he's here and uh he's over the moon. Since since Sunday, he's just been surrounded by bluegrass players, he's in heaven. Uh and I listened to him play, and even though he's been uh working at home on his own, probably from records and tabs and the internet, he's already pretty hot. And they are gonna feature. We're gonna have one of the the student bands, it are all young people, uh you know, sort of fifteen to eighteen. Uh and they'll be amazing. I know they'll be amazing, and uh that they're the future. They're the people that are gonna follow us uh and keep this scene going for the the next fifty, sixty years.

Matt 9:25

Well, I'm really looking forward to seeing them play later. It's like it's great seeing some of the tutors, but it's really fun seeing the students play as well, I would imagine, just uh kind of a real integral part of it all. And I'm looking forward to spending a bit of time here, John. Nice to see you.

SPEAKER_14 9:37

Well, it's great.

Matt 9:37

So welcome and uh enjoy. And this next session, just chatting to Chris Lord. Chris is a banjo player over here in the UK, plays with the band called the Vanguards, um, and also plays with Paul Armour, who you'll hear from later in this episode. Um, and has also been editing the British Bluegrass Music News magazine, the magazine of the British Bluegrass Music Association, um for a while now, and I've done some writing for them, and so I know Chris a little bit through those things. Um and he's part of the team helping out at Sawfingers, uh, as well as being a student on one of the banjo courses, and he's been coming for years, so I thought it'd be fun to chat to Chris. Here is Chris Lord chatting about Sawfingers. I'm here with Chris Lord, banjo player extraordinaire, uh key member of the BBMA team, and you've been to many, many Sawfingers, haven't you?

SPEAKER_05 10:22

Uh yeah, yeah, definitely. Uh my first one was I think 2014 kind of thing, and I've only missed a couple since then, so it's a it's a good number. And how are you finding the new venue? Uh it's great. So I'm kind of I help out now as well on the team, and like you'd kind of expect like some team issues, maybe, you know, new new area, uh new location kind of thing. But it's actually been really good. It's like we've always been here kind of thing. We've not really had any major issues at all. I think everyone's enjoying it. I'm enjoying it. Like it's been really good.

Matt 10:50

Yeah, everybody I've spoken to has said how nice it is and everything's gone really smoothly, and that's like it's extraordinary you think about how big an operation this is and how many people it takes, that essentially most people come in just enjoy it and don't notice any of the chaos because it doesn't sound like there's been any.

SPEAKER_05 11:04

Yeah, no, it it's definitely I mean there's a lot of stuff that happens behind the scenes, I think. Like uh it's there's a surprising amount of work that goes into it, but the team is really tight. You know, every and it's it's it's great to work with them kind of thing. We all get on and um we just uh get it done, I suppose.

Matt 11:21

And I guess everybody on the team is in the same sort of position as the people who come as students anyway, because everybody's a picker, everybody's a lover of the music, and so everybody's here for the same reasons.

SPEAKER_05 11:30

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's you know, a little it's like a kind of a small privilege, it's a huge privilege, but like one of the kind of benefits of being on the team is that you know you get to witness a few things like up close, get to see some of the tutors like picking together and stuff backstage, and that's like that's a really cool thing. Like if that was like the only thing we got from it, that would be more than enough.

Matt 11:50

Yeah, it's an extraordinary week of stuff. And um I'm looking forward to seeing the students play tonight as well, because you know, that's that'll be exciting to see. I haven't seen that before.

SPEAKER_05 11:58

Yeah, that's the um student concert's a really cool thing. Like I don't think that's really a thing in many other um many other kind of tuition like weeks like they have in America and so on. And uh yeah, everyone's really excited. The all of the bands are really good. I feel like they've been getting better year on year, and we've kind of been refining the process. Like Dan, Dan Watson, Dan has uh done a great job kind of corralling everyone, organizing everything, and uh and Helen Hutchinson as well. Like they're kind of the bosses, and um yeah, really looking forward to it. I think it's gonna be good. Me too. Nice to see you, Chris. Cool, good to see you.

Matt 12:32

And as you've heard from those couple of bits there, um talking to John and talking to Chris, scratch bands is one of the big things that hams at sore fingers, alongside tuition in various instruments um and an opportunity to hear the tutors play, the bands people can get assembled into bands if they choose, called scratch bands. Um, and they're put in bands with people of varying abilities and experience. And the idea is you rehearse through the week and then on the Thursday night you play a concert with your band. Um, and some people have, you know, seasoned performers, some people it's the first time they've done it. Um, and it's something that is, I think, maybe not unique to Sawfingers, but it's certainly unusual. I think a lot of camps don't do this, and it's a it's a fascinating part of it. So I had a chat with Dan and Helen, they were two of the people who facilitate the scratch band a bit of Sawfingers, just to find out a bit more about it. So here they are. Well, I'm chatting to Dan and Helen at Sawfingers, who are in charge of the Scratch Band programme here, which is a great initiative that gives people a chance to play in a band, I would imagine, a lot of them for the first time.

SPEAKER_04 13:27

Yeah, yeah, we definitely you get a lot of first timers, people who are hobby-ist musicians who maybe don't ever get a chance to perform, certainly on a stage of this size, and with uh a proper sound engineer, Josh Clark, who comes here every year. Um, and so yeah, many of them have done it before here and maybe don't gig outside, but a lot of people, first timers, we get them signed up and they have a really good time.

Matt 13:50

And they get to play on the same stage with the same equipment as the tutors who are like professional musicians, and there must be a real thrill for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_09 13:57

Absolutely. I mean, I first came to Sawfingers in 2007, and that was my first scratch band experience, and I'd been playing the banjo for a year. I was just a hobby enthusiast, you know, loved bluegrass music all my life. I got myself up on that stage and I never looked back, and now I gig all the time. And the scratch band experience without that, I don't think that would have happened at all.

Matt 14:20

It's amazing, isn't it? Because it's one of those bluegrass is that kind of music that for some things, like if you're playing a rock band, you feel like you've got to learn half a dozen songs and your mates learn the same songs, then you finally kind of rehearse. And but because bluegrass is the way it is, you can sort of just chuck yourself into it, can't you?

SPEAKER_04 14:34

Yeah, yeah, totally. It's that it's that community shared music that a lot of folk musics have, and the beauty of it is that there's such a standard kind of repertoire, um, and so people can quite easily within the first day pick two pick the two songs that they then rehearse for the week, um, but then they can have their individuality shine through with the breaks and they step forward to each get a moment in the spotlight. Um, so yeah, I think it's a it's a great genre for this kind of thing. Um, and certainly we've also had people who've done non-bluegrass stuff and bluegrass it up, you know, pop pop songs and and make them their own, you know. So it's it's a real good mix of of stuff, and it it kind of caters for everyone's interests and abilities, and it's it's yeah, it's really wholesome, it's nice.

Matt 16:26

And it sounds like you've got a pretty wide range of uh ages in the scratch bands as well. There's some pretty pretty young people having a go for the first time as well.

SPEAKER_09 16:33

Yeah, I mean, one of the bands we've got this year, we've got the oldest member who's 90, Casper Cronk, who's come to every single uh Soar Fingers. And uh I think they've worked out there's a 72-year-old age grap gap between him and the mandolin player Joe, who's here for his first time. Uh I can't calculate that straight away. But and then we've got some bands where we've got, you know, 15, 16-year-olds, and uh it it's wonderful. And we try and when we set the bands up, because the bands are done quite randomly, uh well they appear to be random, but they're not really. Um we try and put a mixture of uh people from different ages and backgrounds and abilities, so they just all kind of like mix together and it's brilliant, and everyone's up for it.

Matt 17:21

And some of the kids are kind of um here like on on the equivalent of scholarships, I guess. They're being sponsored to be here by various organizations, and you know, them getting their first chance to do this must be really exciting. I was speaking to somebody when I came in, um a woman whose 15-year-old son is here on the fiddle course, and was, you know, he's not he's pretty new to Bluegrass, he's pretty new to all of it. Um and wasn't really sure he wanted to be in a band, but within a day or two of being here, he was like, Oh, I'll have a go, I'll have a go.

SPEAKER_04 17:45

Yeah, no, it's great. We we're really fortunate that we have some some generous individuals who who offer scholarships as well as the BBMA, they they often help out, um, and I think other other organizations as well. And and it's fantastic to bring the the kids into the full experience, and I think definitely playing in the scratch band um gives them that real on stage uh experience, which is which is different to sitting in a jam or just playing uh around the you know uh around in the classes. Um and I think hopefully they get they get bitten by the bug and and love it, and and then it'll inspire them to maybe think about forming their own bands, getting out there and gigging, you know. It's certainly how I got my start in playing was was a very similar thing when I was when I was young, you know, I'd go to events similar to Sawfingers and and get up on the stage and just yeah, really got a thrill out of doing it. I think it's awesome. Um and it it's great for for the music as well to get get kids kind of into it and and make sure that it continues for another 30 years.

Matt 18:46

Well it is that thing, isn't it? Your first experience of playing music with other people and like playing on a stage can either set you up for life or kind of put you off for life, can't it? And uh having not only the support to kind of coax you along the route, but play in front of a room full of people who know the music and love the music and are all there to support you must just make all that so much less terrifying.

SPEAKER_09 19:07

It's very supportive and everyone gives a big cheer after the end of every solo, uh, no matter what it's like, you know, you you know that you're in a room full of people because a lot of the people in the audience are actually in a band as well, you know, they're they're gonna be in the next scratch band. So um it's it's a very supportive, very buoyant atmosphere. And I think um you know, some people come and they don't they may maybe decide not to do it the first year, but then after they've seen it happen, I think, mmm, yeah, I want to have a go at that. It's it's uh good. I just coming back to your point about the scholarship, I just put a shout out to the chaps from the Rainford session up near St. Helens because they they actually had a whip round and paid for a few students to come this year, and it was such a generous gesture. They just wanted to bring on the young people because they're they're starting to get more young people come to their session locally and they uh they supported them by paying for them to come.

Matt 20:04

That's really fantastic. I'm excited that I'm here. I'm only here for one night, so I'm excited that I'm here for that. I was you see the names on the tutorist and think it's gonna be great to see them play, but actually I'm really looking forward to seeing some some students play, so I'm looking forward to it. I also had a chat with Martin Fraud. Um, Martin has been a student at Sawfingers, been to many of the events, um, and has sort of transitioned into being part of the staff, and he also works with the scratch band students, um and as a a former teacher himself, you know, understands kind of a lot about learning and how people interact in these situations. Um and he had some really interesting insights as well. So here is Martin chatting about the scratch bands at Sawfingers. So I'm here with Martin at Sawfingers. Um Martin is one of the Scratch Band tutors, and you've been come in in various forms over the years, haven't you?

SPEAKER_03 20:45

That's correct. Yeah, I first came as a student. Um somewhere along the line, I got really interested in playing Dobro and uh John Wirtz, who I've known for a long time, um, got a guy called Stacy Phillips over, uh Dobro uh tutor from the States, and uh kind of strong armed me into joining the class. And I suppose I could say I've never looked back because Dobro has now become my main instrument in doing gigs of all sorts.

Matt 21:13

And Dam has been quite a while. What's the what's the experience sort of been like over the years? It's obviously Sawfingers has grown and changed quite a bit in that time.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

Yeah, it has, yeah. I mean the the the numbers of students, well from my perspective anyway, seems to have increased. Um and uh Yeah, the atmosphere's very similar, but it's just got just got bigger though is the way I see it, and and and the move to the new school from my perspective again has been really good.

Matt 21:43

Yeah, everybody's only had good things to say about it, and the surroundings are beautiful, and just wandering around kind of yesterday with the sun out and then seeing everybody sitting around picking last night and and seeing the scratch bands play last night at the concert is an extraordinary thing. It must be lovely having been here as a student, being able to like work with some of those people who are here for the first time maybe and encourage them to get the most out of the experience.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Yeah, that's correct. Uh I mean uh the one thing that really has grown is the Scratch Band programme. I mean, when I first came it was very much a case of putting yourself together in bands and seeing what happened really, and there was a a a fairly small number of bands, but the programme's grown such that we now have I don't know how many it is, five or six Scratch band tutors and eighteen bands, some of which will have as many as nine people in. So the the management of those bands, if you like, uh has certainly grown and it's become well for uh something I really enjoy doing. Uh and you know the the result is what you see on the Thursday night here when everybody walks off the stage highly elated, as if they played the biggest rock concert in the world.

Matt 22:52

And it's great because you get to see like the tutors play and that is incredible in its own right. But there's something about celebrating the students playing as well and the journeys people have gone on over the week, and some people who will go away from this like having the confidence to get up and do it again, and that'll be the start of their journey performing live.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

That's again correct. I mean I y I can think of people I can't I can't remember names, I wouldn't mention them obviously, but who, as you say, come in and the idea of going on stage makes them break out in a cold sweat. But they they're gonna do it, and they do go and do it, and when they've done it, there's a huge boost in in performance and musical confidence such that next year if they can. Come back, they definitely sign up for a scratch band again.

Matt 23:38

I'm like lovely to think that some of them will look back in five, ten, fifteen, twenty years and remember that first time they came to Saw Fingers and just be part of the family that keeps coming back every year.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Yeah, I I I've been involved in education for most of my working life, and it it's very similar to seeing a student come in in year seven at school, and then somewhere along the line they leave in year eleven or maybe go on to do A levels and you that that you see that person develop and flourish at the end, and it's it's it's a nice feeling to see it happen.

Matt 24:13

And one of the big elements of sore fingers, particularly these weekend, is the tutor list that they have. They fly over a bunch of people from the US to teach at the camps. Um and over the years I've had a you know extraordinary list of people come and teach. Um, all names you would recognise, lots of great players, lots of great pickers. Um less so this year than any other year. So I thought I'd take the opportunity to chat to a couple of the tutors while they were here. Um first of these is going to be Michael Daves, and Michael is teaching on the guitar course this year. It's his first time at Saw Fingers. Um, separately from this, I also grabbed him to chat about the new record he has out with Jacob Jolliffe, who was also a tutor this year. Um they've got a tribute to Jim and Jesse record out, so there's a separate episode on that. Go and check in the show notes, there'll be a link there. But yeah, chatted to Michael about his impressions of Sawfingers, what it was like over here for the first time. Um and it was good fun. And later the same day I got to sit down and play a couple of tunes with Michael and with Jacob, which was just a real treat as well. But yeah, here's Michael Daves. I'm here at Saw Fingers with Michael Daves, who's one of the choosers this year. Michael, how are you finding it?

SPEAKER_10 25:13

Uh I'm I've I've been told to pace myself. I'm I'm I'm not doing a great job at that. Teaching all day and playing all night and having a grand old time here. Yeah. And is this your first time here? It is, yeah. I've I've I haven't been able to work it out to make it over here for this, but um Jacob Jolloff and I just released a record, and so we're we're combining it with a couple uh shows here in England. Um and yeah, I'm really glad to be here, having a great time. And you're teaching the guitar course, right? That's right. Yeah. They're um you know, at camps I either teach the vocals or the guitar, but they already had uh Stephen Mojin lined up for the guitar who uh vocals, which is an outstanding teacher and singer himself. So um yeah, I'm doing the guitar class and yet getting uh them doing doing a lot of vocal ear training.

Matt 26:05

And how's it going? It's an interesting um challenge to try and teach people in five days because there's a limited amount of kind of direct imparting of information you can do, and like I would imagine amount of just inspiring people and giving them things they can go away and unpack.

SPEAKER_10 26:19

Yeah, yeah, that's always the challenge in in in in teaching. Well, it isn't it's not every camp where you have the same group for all week, and so that's actually it it feels good to have you know I I can actually you know build something with this this group. You know, the risk is that they get tired of me, but um uh but yeah, the challenge is always um uh you know for me it I mean I'm an educator like full-time and have been doing this for 30 years and probably taught more than most anyone, but and so I I take the the education side really seriously and always trying to, you know, make sure people have you know the real knowledge, you know, something that's you know it's not just uh you know hot lick or two, but you know, really uh kind of developing some real knowledge of of what's going on under the music, you know, or whether it's from an ear training point of view or you know, really getting into the details of the style. Um also in it's in an intensive week like this, people's reins get full. And so the just the challenge is to balance this like with things that they can assimilate and use now, but then take something home that doesn't feel like a bunch of busy work, like, oh gosh, I you know I hear about you know people taking a class and it's like I was really inspired, but then I got home and I feel like I just set my guitar down because I felt like there's just too much work to do. There's no way I'll ever get there. And and I never want people to feel that way. Although I do want them to come away with something real.

Matt 27:40

Well, and the great thing is there's there's a student concert tonight, so a bunch of them will get to put some of that into practice kind of while they're here.

SPEAKER_10 27:47

Yes. Yesterday, Jacob Jolloff, who's teaching the mandolin class, um we realized uh the first day we had both independently taught our students Blue Ridge Cabin Home. We didn't plan that. It just happened that way and was like, oh, we should get our classes together. So yesterday afternoon, the guitar and the mandolin classes uh we we we joined forces and Jake and I did some uh you know demonstration, you know, about the duo and kind of demonstrate straight things about you know improvisation and passing motifs back and forth, you know, some listening exercises, uh call and response, things like that, and you know, accompaniment styles, and then we we uh paired up all the you know a a guitar and a mandolin student, and they all went off and they had been working on that song and practiced it together, and then we reconvened and and several of the groups you know performed for the group. So it was really a good uh you know, very hands-on way of putting literally putting to use what we've been learning immediately, and I think people really enjoyed that, and I I certainly enjoyed it, you know.

Matt 28:47

And that's the joy of being somewhere like this is you're you know, we are surrounded by fields and countryside, we are literally in a bluegrass bubble for a few days, and people get to just live in that world for a while, which is wonderful.

SPEAKER_10 28:57

Yeah, the immersion. I mean, music is you know so much like a language, you know, or you know, or the way we learn music is is very similar to the way we learn language. And so, you know, it's like the difference between you can, you know, read a Spanish textbook and you know, learn some some words and you know, grammar or whatever, but it's not gonna land the same as if you go to that country and have to figure out where to use the bathroom or you know, like out-of-order food or whatever. It's like it's just a different uh, you know, it accesses different parts of the brain. And so, yeah, these immersion experiences, you know, have a lot more of that. And it's uh, you know, on one level, it's an alternate reality that maybe doesn't resemble our mundane area our lives, but you know, on the other hand, there's like there's something of like a there's an opportunity for real communication and real learning because you want to jam, you want to participate, you know, you make friends and like you want to make music together. So um yeah, it's really great to have have everyone all here together and you know, kind of stuck for a little while.

Matt 29:57

Also teaching at Sawfingers this year is Stephen Mogin teaching the singing course. Um Stephen is a sort of singing teacher and educator by by trade and by training anyway, so he's a wonderful kind of addition to the staff here. Um I've spoken to Stephen on the podcast before. He came on to chat about the work he does as a band coach, particularly. Um I saw him do a band coaching session at IBM A first time I went out, and that was a fascinating thing too. I'll put a link in the show notes because that's a really interesting one. Um if you're just interested in kind of learning and improving, and all of there's some fast fascinating insights in that about how to improve as a musician, as a listener, uh as a band member, all those kinds of things. Um yeah, but here's Stephen Mogin chatting about his impressions of Sawfingers. I'm here with Stephen Mogin. You're teaching at Sawfingers this year. How's it going?

SPEAKER_07 30:44

Oh, it's fantastic. What a cool camp. Is this your first time here? It is. Uh, we've been trying to make it work for a number of years, but with my schedule with Sam, it's always hard to schedule it far enough in advance where I can actually commit to coming. So it just worked out this year, and I'm so happy I came.

Matt 31:00

And there are many, many courses you could teach. Which one are you doing this year?

SPEAKER_07 31:04

Ha, that's funny. Um, I'm doing the singing course this year, which is actually the thing I enjoy teaching the most in a camp like this. Uh, my background is in vocal music education. I went to college for that, taught choir for a while, and it's a really fun experience uh getting getting folks singing bluegrass better.

Matt 31:22

And do you notice any big differences between this and the kind of camps you see back in the States?

SPEAKER_07 31:29

Um no. Just the accent. Honestly, no, this is a this is a real top-notch uh camp and uh really fantastic instructors, many of whom I see at other camps that I teach at in the States. Uh it's really well run and uh really cool facility here and a really great community. I've talked to a lot of people who have been coming here for years to this camp, and uh I think that's one of the things that makes camps kind of a special place to go and learn. You meet new friends and you become lifelong friends, which is a cool thing, and that's what music's all about.

Matt 32:05

Yeah, and I guess like one of the joys of it is that it's one of those times, it's a bit like going to IBM A once you've been a few times, you just run into people once a year, and even if you don't see them in between, it's just that chance to connect and feel like part of a community, which is brilliant.

SPEAKER_07 32:19

Absolutely. Yeah, that's a I think it's a a good thing about our bluegrass community, anyways. The whole jam component and all of that, it's very community-driven. And um this is just a nice extension of that.

Matt 32:33

I also got to sit down and have a chat with Tony Trishka, which is always a treat. Tony's been to Sawfingers a couple of times before, including early on, I think maybe the third event he was at. Um and he's back this year. And separately from this, I also got to sit down and talk to him about volume two of his project, Earl Jam. Um and there's a separate episode on that, so check out the link in the show notes. Uh but yeah, just fun again, Chang. It's always fun, Jack. Tony begins to talk to him about Sawfingers, about his experience over here, um, his experience of camps and teaching in general. Uh, yeah, here's Tony Trishka. I am here in a really lovely little theatre space on the site where Sawfingers is being held this year, and I'm delighted to be chatting to Tony Trishka, who's over teaching banjo this year. We've spoken many times for the podcast. We've never actually been able to do an interview in person, so it's great to see you, Tony.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Great to see you, Matt. Finally, I'm here at your side of the pond, and we can do this in person.

Matt 33:22

And this is not your first time at Sawfingers, but it's your first time for quite a while, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

It's been, I think, nine years. Uh John Wertz, who is uh my nemesis, I mean, the person who runs things here. We have this uh banter back and forth. Uh anyway, um he thinks I think it's my third time here, and last time nine years ago, something like that. And it's great to be back.

Matt 33:45

Because you were here for one of the very early ones, weren't you, in the nineties, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

I was. Yeah. I had a food fight that year as I remember it. I didn't instigate it, but someone else started throwing a sloppy cheesecake confection around at me and I talked to hit the person next to me. That's another story. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to get into that. Yeah. We were in Chipping Norton, which is a great name, needless to say. And we need more names like that in the United States. But uh yeah, it was it was a really fun time. And uh when you go to these things, there are a lot of times there are people that you know. Like this year it's great. Michael Daves is here, and Ned Lupe Recki and uh just on and on, Joe Newberry and uh Jacob Jolloff. I could go on. But anyway, lots of old friends.

Matt 34:29

Yeah, and it is some just wandering around the site myself. I've been to one of these things before, but just people I know from being around British Bluegrass, but also people I know it from the podcast, and just sort of seeing all these faces in one place is a lovely thing.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's wonderful. It's a it's a very friendly place. And uh the people I have twenty students, twenty banjo students, and and they're all just really nice folks. Everyone here is just really nice. I should move to England maybe. Okay.

Matt 34:57

Well we have really nice people and really cool place names. Um that's a lot right there. And do you do you notice much difference between the kind of the US camps and what's going on here?

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Uh i it it depends. I mean having John Wirtz running this thing and his wife Mora. Uh I mostly interact with John more than Mora, but uh they sort of create the vibe of the place. And it's just really fun. It's it's a fun atmosphere. It's not quite as not business like, but in the States things are a little more you know, okay, here's what we're doing, more official. And you know, there's a meeting every morning where John or Mora Mora talks about whatever's gonna go on that day or later in the week. But it's it's it's very loose and relaxed, and yet everyone's you know, where they have to be on time to teach or study. So it's it's really it's a combination of really functioning really well on a you know the kind of level you want it to be functioning on. And at the same time, it's very relaxed and loose. And when I was here nine years ago, uh it was much more intense timing-wise. You would work all morning and all afternoon, and then in your one free period before dinner, uh because there would be concerts in the evening, you would have to get, you know, your friends would ask you to play with them or vice versa. You know, there were uh instructor concerts. And in the end, you'd be you'd have five days of like working all day and all night long, and it was just like by the end of that, you're ready to you know just drop dead. But this year it's much more relaxed than that. I mean it's we're still working pretty strongly, like all morning, but then it's an hour and change in the afternoon and there's there are a couple hours off. Which I think is, you know, you just even the students can't take in that much information. Even a five-day workshop is a lot to for people to digest. Uh usually by the third day, by Wednesday, I'm teaching them how to make a chicken sound on the banjo. Uh today I expanded that to be a chic or yesterday it was chicken. Yeah, I think yesterday was a chicken sound, today was a mule sound. You've got to be able to make a sound like a donkey on the banjo. So those these are really important things, I think. Uh so anyway, but yeah, I'm I'm having a great time this year. And John's the best, and so is Maura.

Matt 37:11

So Yeah, there's definitely um it's hard to imagine something like this having this kind of character run by other people because they're part of just the way they are and who they are seems to come through really strongly.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Very much so, yeah. They they create a whole atmosphere for this place just by who they are. And it's not like they're all over the place, you know, they're mostly in the office, but somehow their personalities pervade this whole place.

Matt 37:36

And I thought it'd also be fun to chat to some of the students at Sawfingers this year. Um and the first of those has come over from Sweden. His name is Ben Schodberg, um, and he's at his first Sawfingers. And so it's always fun to chat to people who've been to an event for many years, but it's really interesting to hear from somebody who's there for the first time. And there's a really strong contingent of people over from the sort of continental Europe for Sawfingers, it's not just a UK event. Um so yeah, I grabbed him right after the student concert uh and had a chat. So here he is. We've just finished the student concert and I'm having a chat with Ben Sodberg, who's come over from Sweden. This is your first Sawfingers, right?

SPEAKER_11 38:12

Yeah, my first, yeah. But not the last. And there's quite a few of you come over from Sweden. Yeah, I think we're about ten people from Sweden. It's fantastic, and how are you finding it? Is it what you expected? Yeah, I love it. I don't want to go home. I will say Oh, do you have camps like this in Sweden? Uh pretty much not, but maybe something, but in a smaller scale, maybe one or two days. Yeah.

Matt 38:39

And have you managed to get any sleep at all during the course of the week? Er I no.

SPEAKER_11 38:47

And which which course are you doing here? I'm doing singing. But I'm a guitar player also, but I thought that I should focus on singing this time with Stephen Moochin, who is a fabulous teacher, amazing person also. So yeah.

Matt 39:02

It is extraordinary to be able to get like this quality of teaching without having to cross the Atlantic. Absolutely. I love it, I love it. Well, I'm glad you're having a great time. Thanks for talking to me. Yeah, thank you too. And another person who's here for the first time is Jacob. Um when I arrived at Sawfingers on the Wednesday morning, I turned up at the gates of this impressive, sprawling residential school in the middle of the beautiful English countryside, and I wasn't quite sure I was going, and uh spotted somebody sat near the gates and said, Excuse me, can you point me in the direction of where Sawfingers is happening? And that turned out to be Jane. And as we were walking up um towards the main buildings, she was showing me where I needed to go. She was chatting about her teenage son, who was very new to bluegrass, um, you know, and had come to Saw Fingers, didn't really know what to expect, and just saying what a lovely time he'd had, and um that he'd been a little bit reticent to join one of the scratch bands, but he'd been persuaded to and was really you know enjoying it. And uh we got to the end of the the drive and where I was going to, and I said, Oh, I should have got my my mic out and recorded you, that would have been really interesting. Um and I didn't, and I hadn't, but I bumped into them uh the next day, and so I managed to have a chat with them then, which was after the student concert, which was great. Um it's just really interesting hearing from somebody who is new to all of this, um, and obviously, you know, a little bit shy and a bit nervous and and not quite sure of it all yet. Uh, but to hear that he had a great experience and to hear as well from his mum about what it's like coming to Sawfingers with a young student as a parent, because there was a few people there, there were a few sort of teenage people uh had brought parents with them as kind of chaperones, and and it's a fascinating experience. And just hearing from some of the parents or what a lovely, welcoming atmosphere it had been because those first experiences of playing when you're a kid can really set you up for the rest of your musical life, and it's such an important nurturing bit of what Sawfingers is about. Um so, yes, here's a chat with uh Jacob and his mum Jane. I'm here with Jacob and with Jane. Uh Jacob is at Sawfingers for the first time. Are you relatively new to playing Bluegrass? Yeah, this is the first time I've played Bluegrass.

SPEAKER_12 41:09

Um, how's it going? Uh it's going well, thank you. It's going it's been lovely. I've learned lots, lots of licks, lots of things I didn't know beforehand.

Matt 41:18

And last night you got up on stage and played with a scratch band.

SPEAKER_12 41:22

Yeah, that went well. It was lovely. It was really nice, everything was really pleasant, it was a really great atmosphere.

SPEAKER_08 41:31

And and I was saying that was really nice that they were encouraging for you to do that, because you you weren't sure that that was something you wanted to do, and it's been really nice to see uh a young person pushed out of their comfort zone and doing doing things that that are gonna move you um onto the next level musically, but also onto something that's more confident.

Matt 41:51

It is funny, isn't it? Because something like this where you get to hang around for a whole week and you get to know people, it f like feels like a much safer space than getting up at some open mics can do, I think.

SPEAKER_12 42:00

Yeah, that's true. That is true.

Matt 42:03

Do you feel like you've met some people here that you'll stay in touch with?

SPEAKER_12 42:07

Oh yeah, probably. I mean I'm not great with phone numbers, so that's the joy if I remember.

Matt 42:13

Well, that's the joy of being here and staying is you do see people all week and you make a bit more of a bond than just you know Well, I'm glad you've had a great time. How is it how has it been coming like from totally outside of this scene and seeing it all for the first time?

SPEAKER_08 42:26

We we went to see a band in pen, what were they called?

SPEAKER_12 42:29

Uh The Often Heard.

SPEAKER_08 42:30

The Often Heard, and the guy was talking to chatting with Jacob, he said, if you like that, you'll love this. And and as a mum, I'm happy to support anything that he's interested in, so here we are. Um I've been able to log on to the Wi-Fi, get some work done, but but the magic has just been walking around and hearing different bits of music and different things going on the whole week all over, and everyone's been been really friendly and really supportive, which is lovely.

Matt 42:55

Great. Well, I hope you enjoyed the rest of the week. Enjoy the tutor's concert tonight, and thanks for talking to me.

SPEAKER_08 43:00

We will, thank you.

Matt 43:01

And finally, you're gonna hear from Paul Armour. Paul is a guitarist, a singer, a songwriter, and um I I vaguely knew Paul before this, we'd sort of met at a gig somewhere, and but we didn't really know each other. Um, and so we'd had a bit of a chat, we'd sat and played a couple of tunes together, um, and he was talking about his experience on the songwriting course, and it um, you know, it had been a sort of moving experience and something that unblocked something that had been holding him back. Um, and so I wanted to talk to him as well because just I think that one of the joys of a week-long music camp is you can learn some stuff, but you can only learn so much. But what it can do is just imbue you with a bunch of things to go away and work on, and it sounds very much like that's what Paul had come hoping for and what he'd got. So I'm gonna leave you uh with the final segment of these interviews, and this is Paul Armour. Um, if you want to hear what Paul is up to, I will stick a link in the show notes to where you can go and follow Paul on social channels and hear some of his songs. Um, but yeah, this has been a really fun episode to put together. I just really, really enjoyed my time at Sawfingers. The choosers were great, the team there were great, the students were great, I really enjoyed watching the student scratch bands play. Um, yeah, if you're over in in the UK or in Europe and you want a bluegrass kind of thing to immerse yourself in for a week, it it's a great thing to do. So I'll put a link in the show notes to where you can find out more about Sawfingers. They've got an October weekend coming up this year, uh, another Easter weekend coming up next year. Um, yeah, follow them, get on their mailing list and find out what it's all about. I've had a great time. Thanks to John and Moira and the whole team for looking after me so well and making me so welcome. Um yeah, I just had a really fantastic time there. Uh, this is Paul Armour. I'm here at Sawfingers and I'm chatting to uh songwriter and guitar player Paul Armour, and he's been doing the songwriting course, and we've just been having a fascinating chat about how it's going. Um, yeah, tell us how your week has been so far.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

So my week has been a journey, um to say the least. I I sort of considered myself uh a songwriter. I've been sort writing songs for a few, well, since I was like fifteen. Uh but I knew that there was some like uh sort of psychological demons that were maybe getting in my way and sometimes sometimes plaguing me. So I sort of I knew that taking on the doing the songwriting course was gonna be a little bit challenging. And um it has been. I had the first couple of days was you know, really quite quite tough. You know, it's all the classics of uh you know, comparison and uh self deprecation and being being a bit too hard on myself, and then the last couple of days it's uh I've been able to sort of relax into it a little bit and uh make some progress. And it's it's gonna, you know, be a well, probably a lifelong uh endeavor or journey, but it's been very, very worth it. Um Joe Newbury has been yeah, fantastic. He's like I think I said to you outside, he oozes wisdom, uh, which yeah, and he's just super gentle and kind and also like you know, pulls amazing lines uh you know out of seemingly thin air. Um but yeah, yeah, it's been it's been brilliant. It's had its ups and downs, but that's I suppose it's life.

Matt 46:20

Well, and it's I love the idea that you like come for five days and confront something that's been like worrying you a bit, and you're gonna go away feeling like you've got a lifetime's worth of work out of being here for a few days.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Yeah, totally. And it's I suppose it's like being given I'm being given the tools and I've got to go and uh go and use them, you know, and uh but it's gonna it'll take a lot of repetition and like uh checking back in with myself and making sure I'm not not falling back into old habits. But yeah, I suppose it's just the start, but uh yeah, it's yeah, I've it's been brilliant. It's been brilliant.