Michael Daves - Celebrating Jim & Jesse with Jacob Jolliff

My guest this week is Michael Daves and we're chatting about the superb new record he has out with Jacob Jolliff, We Like Jim & Jesse!

The record, released on Michael's own label Wild Geranium Records, celebrates the music of first generation bluegrass legends, brothers Jim and Jesse McReynolds.

Michael talks about meeting Jesse in 2019 - he was 90 or 91 at the time and still writing new tunes every day - and how that sparked the idea for the record. We also chat about Jesse's unique contribution to the history of bluegrass mandolin, how one of their biggest hits was written on the spot in response to an argument and why Jim and Jesse's vocal blend is every bit as important to their sound as Jesse's mandolin playing.

We also talk about Fables, Michael's recent release that pays tribute to a very different act...R.E.M.

This interview was recorded at Sore Fingers, the wonderful UK bluegrass camp that runs every Easter (and has for the past 30 years). Later this week I'll be bringing you an interview with Tony Trischka, also recorded at the camp, plus a special episode celebrating Sore Fingers.

You'll find Michael and Jacob's record on Bandcamp, where you'll also find Michael's R.E.M. tribute Fables

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:27

I mean th th just the nature of that song is it's almost like a pop song. It's like very simple. And there's actually a story uh that I heard from Jesse's wife about that, which which is uh you know, I mentioned that Jim did the business and Jesse was kind of the music director, and evidently Jim was ribbing on Jesse's like, hey man, you're not you're not coming up with a new enough new material for our band. And Jesse's like, what what? I'm writing songs all the time. Here, I'll write one right now. And he writes that song on the spot, despite his brother.

Matt 0:56

Hi, this is Matt, and you're listening to Bluegrass Jam Along the podcast for anyone and everyone who loves Bluegrass. Hey everybody, welcome back to Bluegrass Jamalong. Um, I have three episodes for you this week, uh, and that is because I went down to Sawfingers a couple of weeks ago, which is a wonderful British bluegrass camp that has been running for 30 years and just brings together a wonderful community of people, um, some tutors that come over from the US, uh, a bunch of students from all over the UK and Europe for a week of picking and learning and playing, and it's just a glorious thing. And while I was there, I got to chat to a bunch of people, and I'm gonna give you this week three different episodes, shorter than the usual uh interviews. Uh the first one, which is this one, is gonna be a chat with Michael Daves about his um brand new record with Jacob Jolliffe, which is a duet record, which is a tribute to Jim and Jesse, and it's just fantastic. Um so I got to chat to Michael about that, and we also chat about um the REM kind of covers EP that he put out in December as well, which is fascinating, and his new label Wild Geranium Records. So that's coming up, uh, stick around for that. Then later in the week we're gonna have a chat with Tony Trishka about volume two of Earl Jam. Um I chatted with Tony about volume one last year, and volume two is out now, we talk about that. And then the third episode this week is gonna be about Sawfingers itself, and I chat to the team kind of responsible for running Sawfingers, I talked to some of the students, uh I talked to some of the tutors, and just to give you a flavour of all of that as well, because I talked to John Wirtz, who runs Sawfingers along with his partner Moira, um, about kind of the history of the camp and some of that kind of stuff a few weeks ago. Um, and that was a lot of fun, but it was great to go down and just experience it and talk to some people. Um so yeah, you've got three shorter episodes coming this week, um, and this is the first one of them. Uh this is my chat with Michael Daves about the Jacob Jolliffe Jim and Jesse uh Jibet Record. I will stick a link in the show notes to the Michael Daves related stuff we'll talk about in this episode, um, and I'll put a link in the third episode this week to all the sore finger stuff so you can go check that out as well, because it is a really remarkable event, and I really feel like you should check it out if you don't know it. Uh but that is it. Here is me talking to Michael Daves about Jacob Jolliffe and Jim and Jesse. Lots of Jays in there. Um enjoy Michael Daves, welcome back to Bluegrass Chamblon. Great to see you. You too. It's great to talk to you again. And I'm looking forward to this one. It's um really interesting record you've got here with Jacob Jolliffe uh like a tribute to Jim and Jesse. Um how did the project come about?

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Well, um it started. I I interviewed Jesse McReynolds of Jim and Jesse uh in 2019 for my online school of Bluegrass Vocals with Artistworks, and one of the cool things about that job, in addition to working with students, is that uh you know, I have kind of a calling card to go interview bluegrass legends. And uh so in 2019, I yeah, I talked to Jesse and actually interviewed Bobby Osborne on the same day on a national trip. It was a big day. Uh, but anyways, Jesse um, you know, I'd always loved the Jim and Jesse music, and Jesse himself was just so sweet and so warm and just a delight to talk to. And he was 90, I forget 91-ish, 92, somewhere in there at the time I interviewed him. He's still writing new tunes every day. Um, just you know, just always looking to try something new and just clearly just love music and just very gentle soul, and and like, man, that's just that's you know, I'd heard that about him, but it was nice to experience that in person. And then uh following that, um, I guess this is kind of more coming out of the pandemic, uh, for also for artist works. I I do these monthly videos for my students, and I like to do series on uh just kind of further explore a particular artist. Like we did a year long series uh commemorating the Doc Watson centennial, and I was talking to a bunch of different people like you know, Brian and Billy and all these people, and then but I had been doing I was did uh about a year on Jim and Jesse um songs and uh with different special guests, uh, you know, people who you know knew them or worked with them or you know, were just influenced by their music, like Andy Statman and John Reichman among others. And um anyway, so I just got this, you know, this repertoire going that I was teaching. And uh at the time Jacob Jolliffe and I were getting busy with our duo, you know, coming coming out of the pandemic. We were finding ourselves getting fun kind of falling uh backwards into a bunch of bookings, including some overseas stuff. And like, we should I'd like to make a record. And uh like I was in the midst of teaching with Jim and Jesse and stuff, and I'm like, wait, Jacob is the would be the perfect partner for this. Um and we we started working some of that stuff into our set. And uh in fact, on the we had planned to make the record, and then I in I wanna I think it was 2023, we were at Rotterdam Bluegrass Festival when we got the news that Jesse had passed, and but and we were able to do a whole set of Jim and Jesse music that day um because we we already had it worked up. We'd you know planned to go in the studio. We had hoped to be able to someday share our recording with Jesse. Um it you know it ended up taking a while uh to actually make the record, but we had the repertoire together, and so it was nice to be able to do that tribute. And I don't know how many uh folks in the Netherlands were familiar with Jim and Jesse, but you know, the set seemed to go over well, and it was good to be just be able to honor him that in that way on that on that day.

Matt 6:42

Yeah, and when it's you know, lots of people will know the previous duo record, you remember Chris Seely, which was definitely kind of a tribute to the brother band kind of things, but this is much more kind of specific deep dive into the repertoire of these two, and they're they're a fascinating combination of musicianship songs and vocals, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah, well I'm I'm a big fan of the guitar mandolin duo, and um that's that's been probably this probably my favorite musical mode. And so, yeah, but I'm best known for you know the album with Chris Theley, Sleep with One I Open, that came out in 2011. And Chris and I, you know, occasionally you know uh get the band back together, as they say. But I've also done stuff with Mike Compton and Andy Statman, Frank Sullivan, um you know, uh Sarah Jarose was on my record Orchids and Violence, and we recorded a guitar mandolin duet as part of that, and um just other uh you know, just uh I I love that format. Um and and uh you know J Jacob and I were you know hitting out hitting it off. And um, you know, to record another guitar mandolin duo, uh I I wanted to make sure that it had a distinct identity and character and purpose, you know, to set it apart from the the Thely Daves project, which you know also fished from classic bluegrass, but not it wasn't like themed in in this, um, in this way. So um also, you know, the Jim and Jesse music, um, you know, Jim and Jesse, their vocal style is like very like uh they just do all these really straight, clean tones. It's like a laser beam, like the way they sing together, as contrasted to something like Jimmy, Jimmy Martin and Bill Monroe, who would have like a tremendous amount of movement, uh, a lot of blues, you know, smearing, you know, tones. But Jim and Jesse will just like hit a note in an interval and just hold it, you know, just straight and narrow, and it's just such a great resonance in the way they sing. And and Jacob, you know, uh, he's a very flexible singer, but he's also just like rock solid. And he just as a person, he's just and a performer, he's just, you know, no, no uh uh, you know, no frills, he's just very straightforward energy. And so I thought that his vocal style and just his demeanor just actually made a lot of sense, you know, interpreting the Jim and Jesse music. And then of course he plays all this outrageous progressive stuff. But you know, Jesse McRinnells back in the day, he had this revolutionary style that in its day was was very progressive, and it's kind of this you know combination of you know, we're both very traditional and doing something totally new is is what they were about initially. And so that that just it just made sense to me with Jacob. And you know, Jacob grew up playing bluegrass gospel. So I mean he he comes by the Trad stuff very honestly, but this you know, so anyways, but it just felt like it was a good container for us and you know what we wanted to do, and you know, it's certainly distinct stylistically from yeah, from the Thely Days record and other you know uh guitar mandolin duos that I do.

Matt 9:38

And it's and I think that it's a really interesting point about Jesse and that kind of progressive style of his. I think most people who spend any time learning the mandolin come across Jesse and you soon discover kind of this whole cross-picking style and this thing that he developed that is pretty well known amongst mandolin players. But yeah, I was wondering sort of like what you can tell me about Jim, because in any duo there's two important roles and nowhere to hide. And I feel like Jesse is pretty known for what he's done. And I wonder if Jim maybe slightly less celebrated.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Um yeah, well, part of that is because I think as as far as the division of labor, as I understand it with Jim and Jesse, is that Jesse was the musical director of the band and Jim was the business manager. So he Jim did like all the booking, all the behind the scenes stuff. Um and uh it it it uh it sounds like Jesse is the one as I understand it who was like most motivated initially to like pursuing pursue music as uh a career. And um I think that you know when they came back from the service, uh you know, Jim was like working as a truck driver, and you know, Jesse was like, Well, come on, are we are we gonna do this? Do you want to be a truck driver for the rest of your life, or are we gonna play music? And Jim's like, okay, we'll we'll play music, you know. Um but uh so and and he yeah, I think he had a and I I never met Jim. He I think he passed and I'm gonna say 2002, and um yeah, as has never gotten out and had a chance you know to be around him or hear him perform, uh, unfortunately. But uh it sounds like Jesse was like the the the creative spark there, but you know, being a brother duet, I mean it's all about just the interaction of those energies, and I think it's often the case in duos and also in siblings that you have kind of like a yin and a yang, you know, like like kind of like the Louven Brothers. I mean, Ira Leuven was just this outrageous, sort of loose canon, brilliant, creative person, and then Charlie was kind of like the the stable one, uh, but you you wouldn't have the Louver Brothers music without that dialogue between those different energies, and it's like the sum of the parts ends up being greater. So I I think um that yeah, that Jesse had that that that artistic spark, that that drive to to do music to create, but like it was all about the interaction with Jim and whatever way that kind of Jim just kind of you know held the line, especially stylistically, you know, just this being just so rock solid, his his singing, um just so pure, you know, it just gave Jesse's I think something to kind of work off of.

Matt 12:17

Well I guess yeah, you go back to these the sort of classic years of some of the Belgiuets as well. And and bluegrass guitar as a thing was slightly different, wasn't it? You didn't get the kind of you know, people didn't take the the spotlight solo and on guitar in the way that they have since so they just the dynamic amongst that was probably different at that point anyway. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

And Jim and Jesse almost always performed as I think as a whole band, you know, they they were billed as you know as the brother, but they they always had a uh a top flight band, you know, that with you know they had Vassar Clemetz on fiddle early on, and then Jimmy Buchanan and Alan Shelton and and uh uh you know, just this whole cavalcade of amazing musicians, um Bobby Thompson on banjo or and but and the the center of their music was always that vocal blend that and even as as extravagant of a mandolin player as Jesse was, uh it just it was all came to the vocal blend, as is and so um and I feel that actually that's kind of how things work out with me and Jake as well, is even though we Jake and I each pick quite a bit and improvise, and I mean Jake especially, he's just a you know he's got this you know outrageous vocabulary and facility on the instrument and just like the sinless stream of ideas. But I I feel like in this project, I I feel like the vocals are really central. And and I really like singing with Jake, and I think that's if if you know if it works, it's it's largely on account of you know our vocal blend and presentation being central. And so I think that I like that because I think it kind of contextualizes the the hot playing in a way that like it's it's not just about you know the it's just kind of almost happening around that that you know that central harmony. And there's just something so compelling about two voices when they blend well, and you know, the Jim Jesse music, as I said, it's just like all these long straight tones that like they didn't need to move, they didn't need to put a lot of ornamentation in there, but just like the way those voices combined was in itself compelling. They could just stay on one note, like kind of the whole song, and it would be like droning or something, and it would still be interesting. So there's just something, there's some you know, something human in that.

Matt 15:29

Well, and you talked earlier about the the kind of um the kind of clarity of their harmony, and they're not doing these big sort of leaps and swapping over parts. There's you know, and this check, um, I'll love nobody but you, that you know, there's there's pretty quick um and has and that but that the clarity and the kind of sort of simplicity in a way, it's well, there's not this huge amount of alimentation, but it's a very exciting vocal blend that you guys have on there.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Oh, yeah, thanks. I barely made it through that one. Um that was one thing. I'm not sure this is gonna make it on the record because I was this is the end of or that one one session, and my voice was getting tired, but it was just funny how that you know sometimes works out despite your best efforts. But um that song in particular, I'll love nobody but you. Um, I mean, that the just the nature of that song is it's almost like a pop song. It's like very simple. And there's actually a story uh that I heard from Jesse's wife about that, which is uh you know, I mentioned that Jim did the business and Jesse was kind of the music director, and evidently Jim was ribbing on Jesse's like, hey man, you're not you're not coming up with the new enough new material for our band. And Jesse's like, What, what? I'm writing songs all the time. Here, I'll write one right now. And and he writes that song on the spot despite his brother. And it's the simplest song you can imagine, but it ended up being a hit, of course. And it part is just because it worked for them because they have this kind of pop like simplicity to their presentation, like the facade of it, you know, it's very palatable compared to, you know, they're not, you know, bad boys, and you know, it's very like kind of family-friendly presentation, you know, and that that sort of the pop-ishness of that song is a good uh you know, case in point for you know their vibe. Um, but you know, it it's still somehow compelling, it's still got some substance, you know, underneath, and part of that's you know, all the hot playing, but and again, that the the blend, you know, and just the way those voices, you know, collide and you know, the overtones just kind of multiply, and you know, it's just like you just want more of it.

Matt 17:28

So well, and you're still talking about coming to the end of that session. I'm wondering if you're gonna make it through, and and because there's obviously there's no overdubs on this record. I'd love to talk a little bit how you recorded this because it's pretty straightforward, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Oh yeah. We um we recorded in this uh it's in uh a church hall in Brooklyn um built in the late 1800s that um I've used for a number of recordings, including uh well, all all three of the releases on Wild Geranium, uh my my label, and also um Orchids and Violence, which was this double record I put out in 2016, and uh Burning House, which is an EP I produced for Jen Larson, is all recorded in this this space. Um so it's a large space with you know balcony and like big vaulted ceilings, and so um I like to just you know uh I really enjoy singing in that room. Um there's something about like the way the the sound bounces back. Um but yeah, we just uh set up in the middle of this large hall. Uh we're singing into the same mic, uh just facing each other. You know, it's it's in the mic's in figure eight, so you can sing into either side of it. And we have close mics on the instruments, and then uh you know a pair of ribbon mics back, you know, about six feet, and then a room mic, you know, off in the distance to kind of capture the the distant echo. But um, yeah, it was all done live. Um yeah, no overdubs, just you know, singing to the same mic, and um, you know, it's deliberately we make it so that you can't you can't go fix things uh later puts the the the the uh pressure on the live performance. We did edit some between takes. So um you know we didn't use a click track or anything, but our tempos were I guess consistent enough that you know if if we liked a solo better from this other take, or maybe like there's some of the songs have a lot of words in it. We had a hard time getting through an entire take you know, being in sync, uh, you know, it's singing the same words at the same time for the entire song. So there's a little bit of cutting and pasting, and we can do that, but it was all you know, yeah, the live live performances singing into the same mic, and you know.

Matt 19:36

Yeah, my um my 13-year-old son is a huge Beatles fan, and he's just delighted that he's found this trove of treasure trove of stuff on YouTube of all the kind of bloopers and the outtakes, and then you know, John and Paul trying to get through this boy, remembering when to sing this boy and when to sing that boy, and just getting it blatantly wrong so many times.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Right. Yeah, when you hear a record, you're hearing like the the you know the distillation. Yeah, there's a lot of yeah, a lot of errors that that happen before you get that final product, and so um, but yeah, I like a when you have musicians who are like great you know, improvisers, you know, listeners and all that. I like putting the pressure of like not putting everyone in isolation booths and you know um, we did that with Orchids and Violence, where the band was Noam Pakilny, Sarah Jureaux, Brittany Haas, Mike Bub, myself, and it's like that's what a band. I mean, what a I know. And so we recorded that live to four-track tape in that same room where Sarah and Noam were actually playing into the same microphone, recorded to one track of tape. There's no not only not only is there no fixing, but there's no like blending or changing the levels of the instrument after the fact. You're just counting on the musicians listening to one another and understanding how Adolf is together, and you know, with a band like that, they all understand. And uh, you know, the music can benefit from you know putting that sort of pressure on it, but in a lot of other situations you wouldn't want to put that sort of pressure on. But I I like I like making recordings that try to capture more of the energy of a live performance, and to me that's part of it is like not giving yourself the chance to fix much after the fact.

Matt 21:11

Yeah, yeah. And then you you mentioned earlier about using the same space for other records on your new level wild geranium, and there's another record you put out recently, which is also a tribute record of songs, but of a very different very different nature.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Yeah, that in December uh 25 uh I released an EP uh called Fables, which is a uh remake or reimagining of six songs from Fables of the Reconstruction, which is an REM album from 1985, so it was celebrating its 40th anniversary. And that we did the days of the Bluegrass band, it was with Jacob Joliff on Mandolin, Alex Hargraves on Fiddle, um Eric Olivar on bass. And that's so that was my sort of Brooklyn quartet that we've been working together quite a bit for a while, and then we added uh Duncan Wickle on um cello and also bazookie on some tracks and and um uh harmony vocals from Jefferson Hamer, who's from the Murphy Beds, and IS Mitchell and amazing kind of folk and Irish singer, and then uh Sean Cale from this indie rock band called the Next Great American Novelist. But um yeah, we we we we adapted these REM songs, which I grew up with to a bluegrass ornament uh instrumentation and yeah, recorded it again like uh live in that same space. Um yeah, so that that that was sort of uh uh you know a different exploration of the southern Gothic. Well, yeah, it's an interesting way of looking at it actually. So what what's next for the trilogy then? Well, I I I I feel like I'm done doing tribute records for a little while. Um you know, these two back-to-back, you know, the Jimmy Jesse and the REM. You like I know it's hard to, you know, it couldn't be much more different, except for both being, you know, uh kind of outstanding examples of southern music, you know, and culture. But um uh yeah, I'm looking to kind of do I'm probably gonna be recording um uh some uh you know combination of original and trad music. Um I've I've been planning for a while a Mando Cello and Drums EP Um working with uh Kid Millions, who's this uh the drummer from this experimental rock band called Oneida, who um I started working with uh for the release of Orchids and Violets, which was uh that was 2016, that was in a double record where the first disc was all acoustic, it was all bluegrass, and that was the band I was telling you about with you know Noam and Sarah and Brittany and Bub. And then the disc two was all the same songs in the same order, but done in kind of an experimental electric, you know, reimagining of that same material. And so and on that electric side of the record, I played the drums myself, but I didn't want to do that live. So we started working with this guy, Kid Millions, whose name is John Culpitz, uh amazing drummer, uh just incredible improvising musician. But um so we performed that music up until the pandemic. And then uh so I've been wanting to uh get back together with him and and do some more folk based stuff. And yeah I've been listening to a lot more of uh kind of the Brit folk uh stuff and being a bit more inspired by stuff like Pentangle and you know Richard and Linda Thompson. So it'll be a little bit of a flavor of that I think but also combined with some you know original stuff I've been writing.

Matt 24:37

Excellent I mean that sounds like you know yet another in the classic tradition of Mandarcello and drum durette records do we need another one?

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Right.

Matt 24:45

Yeah it's the craze that's sweeping the nation yeah Tony Trishka champ uh jokes about that when he does the the bass banjo duet you know it's the new craze well looking forward to hearing that one um and really really enjoying the durette record it's um it's a lot of fun it's got wonderful energy to it um and yeah it's great to talk to you again thank you yeah nice talking to you